Quick Question

[townsvillegirl]

why when there's a proper photographer booked for the wedding, you want to second shoot to get a little practice and build your portfolio, the couple asks the photographer on your behalf and he says no?
Its a free shoot from me they get a cd of the photos i take?
i am not in any way going to get in the photographers way
DONT UNDERSTAND WHY THEY GET SO UPSET???????

[Warbler]

Because you do get in the way. You distract the people the pro is trying to photograph. They look at you and not the pro. Just take shots the pro isn't getting and that way the couple don't just get a copy of the photos the pro has already taken, just from a few feet further left or right. And don't go up to the pro and say things like, "I'm just going to rearrange the bride's hands". Stay in the background and let them do their work.

Oh, if at some stage you find that you're on the opposite side to the pro, move, because you're in his/her background.

Just enjoy the day and shoot any good shots you see, but don't try to do a full wedding coverage because someone is already being paid to do that.

Cheers,
Tim

[townsvillegirl]

Because you do get in the way. You distract the people the pro is trying to photograph. They look at you and not the pro. Just take shots the pro isn't getting and that way the couple don't just get a copy of the photos the pro has already taken, just from a few feet further left or right. And don't go up to the pro and say things like, "I'm just going to rearrange the bride's hands". Stay in the background and let them do their work.

Oh, if at some stage you find that you're on the opposite side to the pro, move, because you're in his/her background.

Just enjoy the day and shoot any good shots you see, but don't try to do a full wedding coverage because someone is already being paid to do that.

Cheers,
Tim


Hahaha i wouldnt be game to up the pro and say that, thats not my nature all.......as i said i dont intend to get in there way
I AINT THAT STUPID

[Warbler]

I AINT THAT STUPID

Some folks are though, and that is probably why the photography isn't taking any chances.

[MarkChap]

If you want to second shoot weddings for experience, you need to be approaching the wedding photographers in Townsville, show them your work, build a relationship, and get some work that way.
You obviously have some sort of relationship with the couple, asking friends/family to ask the photographer if you can second shoot for them is not the way to do it.

Being a second shooter is NOT wandering around with your camera and taking photos.
During the ceremony a second shooter will getting different angles
A second shooter will shoot the detail, shoot the "behind the scenes", that is, whilst the "pro" is shooting the family groups the second will be grabbing candid's, not just another angle of the same shot he is doing.
The second shooter will also become the lacky, holding reflectors, flashes, looking for things that aren't quite right, shoes poking out from dress hems etc, moving gear, setting up gear for the next shot etc etc etc.

The pro may already have his/her own help for the day

Why do they get so upset,
- because they don't have the time or inclination to take on someone they don't know as an "apprentice" for a day.
- because the wedding that you want to use for portfolio building, they will be using in their own portfolio
- because you WILL get in the way
- because you WILL distract the subject of his shots
- because you WILL have the bride and or groom or both off doing some thing when he needs or wants them

[ricktas]

I agree with the above comments. Nothing worse than trying to shoot a wedding and getting all the important people to look at you, when someone is over your shoulder shooting and the wedding party are smiling and looking at them.

Guests will bring cameras and there is nothing the wedding photographer can do about that, but during the posed shots, that the photographer is directing, no one else should be taking photos until the wedding photographer has said he/she is done and others can now shoot.

People pay a lot of money for a wedding photographer and the last thing they want is an album full of photos with people looking all over the place trying to smile for the umpteen cameras pointed at them.

And to add to what Mark said, a Wedding is not the place for a beginner photographer, get your skills up, and then approach a wedding photographer about being a second shooter. I would not take on a second shooter who could not show me a damn good base portfolio, after all their photos are representing my name and business.

If you want to take photos as a guest, go for it, but keep out of the Professional Photographer's way when doing so.

[swifty]

I agree strongly with those who've already commented.
Especially what Mark said about second shooting, if you've been given the op by the official photographer.
Its not about doubling up on the same shots, its to get a second perspective cos one person can't be in two places at the same time and the main photographer needs to be covering the main action.
Eg. if the official photographer is up front close to the action during the ceremony, you might be down the isle with a tele, up at a high vantage point capturing an 'aerial' view, getting some crowd emotions etc. You'd work in tandem with the official tog and often have more flexibility to be creative.
But unfortunately if you intend to shoot for yourself doing your own coverage of the entire event, you will want to be in on the main action and will inevitably get in the way.

[ameerat42]

You say someone got upset, presumably the booked photographer. But did he/she really? Or is that how you understood it.
It's absolutely NOT the way to go about getting practice/portfolio (and there's plenty of good advice above).
I'm surprised the photographer didn't ditch the account - that's if he really was upset.
Am.

[alsocass]

I think you have forgotten that the wedding photographer will have sold the couple on a package, and then will be later hoping to upsell and get the clients to upgrade or buy additional photos.

If the second shoot is offering a free cd of photos to the bride there is the potential to lose profits.

I mean I could get one or two fancy shots from the paid photographer and then for all the relatives I could just print my own from the cd that the free back up photographer gave me.

It never fails to amaze me the value that photographers place on high quality photos... and then I see the photos that my cousin uploads on to facebook from her wedding. They are awful, I mean I would have deleted 80% of the photos that her very shoddy wedding photographer gave her (that she paid for!!). My point is that she thinks they are great, just loves them. So while people on this forum can tell the difference between good quality and bad, I am struck that a great majority of clients are a lot less sure.

[Warren Ackary]

I asked this self same question to a local professional who came over to offer me advice on the wedding my wife and I shot.

I put to him when he does a wedding could I tag along and take shots here and there as to not get in his way and ruin his flow for the day.
At first he said no (because he always likes to work alone regardless of what he does=said he is very jealous about his work) then after awhile turned and said to me that he "may" have something upcoming but to use the wedding I was doing as an experience to know what he would be shooting on the day as to not get in the way.

Seems there are MANY variables in being a 2nd shooter (AND even as an assistant if you want). However I think togs really should remember thier background in regards of how they started as a 2nd shooter is no threat to thier current paid job if the person does what is told. A shame some (well alot now days) a greedy in regards to a shoot and dont want to impart knowledge (this latter part has nthing to do with 2bd shooter @ a wedding)

[ricktas]

I asked this self same question to a local professional who came over to offer me advice on the wedding my wife and I shot.

I put to him when he does a wedding could I tag along and take shots here and there as to not get in his way and ruin his flow for the day.
At first he said no (because he always likes to work alone regardless of what he does=said he is very jealous about his work) then after awhile turned and said to me that he "may" have something upcoming but to use the wedding I was doing as an experience to know what he would be shooting on the day as to not get in the way.

Seems there are MANY variables in being a 2nd shooter (AND even as an assistant if you want). However I think togs really should remember thier background in regards of how they started as a 2nd shooter is no threat to thier current paid job if the person does what is told. A shame some (well alot now days) a greedy in regards to a shoot and dont want to impart knowledge (this latter part has nthing to do with 2bd shooter @ a wedding)

There is a world of difference between being a guest taking photos at a wedding and being a second shooter. And you asked the wedding photographer directly, which is the right way.

In most instances a second shooter is someone the photographer hires to do the job, not someone who is unknown to them, from amongst the wedding guests. By all means go as a guest and take photos.

However if someone wants to become a second shooter, they should approach the local wedding photographers and apply for the role, themselves. Getting the wedding couple to ask (on your behalf) as the original poster did, is not the way to go. If you apply for any job, do you get your mum to do it, or your next door neighbour, or a friend? No, you apply for the position yourself, and being a second shooter is no different.

The OP should have found out who the photographer was, arranged an appointment, gone along, with a portfolio and been interviewed, just like any other employment seeking.

This might seem harsh, but the reality is, the wedding photographer is running a business, and if someone wants to get involved, then they need to do so in the exact same way as they would for seeking employment anywhere else.

Would anyone on AP employ someone based on a request from a client, with zero knowledge of, and having never met, the person who you would be employing, in either a paid or unpaid role? After all this person is going to be representing you and your company, and legally you are also responsible for this person whilst they are working for you.

[kanesmadness]

Ive done 2 weddings now as a second shooter...the first i think i took a total of about 3 photos the rest of the time was spent carrying things, moving things, holdings things or being ordered around by the photographer. Unlike OP however i introduced myself to the photographer showed a sample of photos i had taken and explained that i just wanted the experience, no money or anything like that just a chance to help out and learn something new. There were alot of reservations despite this person being a close friend of mine, after all like other people have said by being there you are representing someone else. If you stuff up then its reflects on them.

By the second wedding i was actually allowed to take more photos and while the pro was doing the posed shots and the ceremony i did the BTS and candids which the couple were very happy with in the end...not to mention the huge amount i learnt

[AVALANCHE]

When I started out with Photography a year ago or so, and I wanted to get into Weddings, yet had no experience with either yet, I did a few things to get there;

1.) First of all, I built my basic knowledge of Photography up enough to the point I felt competent to operate and use my camera in manual settings as well as understanding the basics of RAW and post processing, this took around 4-5 months for me where in that time I did a short course at TAFE also.

2.) I then read on forums and in Photo magazines as much information I could about Wedding Photography in particular. This learning process for any sort of Photography is on-going and you never stop!

3.) I then went onto Gumtree and posted in-short that I was inexperienced yet I was looking for work shooting a small function like a party, and that I would shoot it for free and provide the photos on disk, and if the client was happy, I would appreciate a tip of some sort if they chose to, yet was not essential. I got messaged by a couple and I shot their party at a park...from memory I got around 300 photos (I considered that a lot back then...but it isn't!) over the space of around 6-7 hours and they were thankfully very happy with the photos. I made about $350 from it. I did quite a few of these type of functions and the more I did, the more portfolio photos I had to use to warrant that I had experience, and more importantly, give the client confidence in my ability.

4.) I did my first Wedding by myself which was medium sized (around 200 people), and that was a long, hard day. I do not recommend doing it solo, it was actually a very stupid thing to do. It threw me right into the deep end and I got the classic Wedding problems (one in particular on the day was, the previous Wedding was delayed, so therefore the Ceremony was delayed for the couple I was shooting, so the original plan of going to the Harbour Bridge in Sydney went down the drain despite me going to the location a day or so prior to check the best place to shoot around there in the quickest time so we could get back to the reception for the limo drivers...so they had no idea where else to go, and I had to check my phone to find a park nearby instead and so we shot there). I am thankful it worked out for the photos, but I was shattered mentally and physically by the end of it and had no idea the amount of work I would do. 15 hours without a break, then Post Processing that would follow. Like above, it was a difficult conversation trying to explain to people I needed the attention of the Bride and Groom at first and then they were free to photograph them. Women in particular are very territorial and notorious for this and generally disregarded my wishes, which then I had to explain to them the consequences of photos that were not optimal and that if they personally wished that upon the couple for someone they had paid, to which they quickly backed off. I suggest you first do small functions and parties, build up the portfolio that way...

5.) I then had Wedding Photos which I approached a 'pro' photographer with as a portfolio. He loved them and definitely saw me coming...he smooth talked me and I agreed to work as an 'internship' style and if all worked out well then I would get regular paid work with my own client flow. I shot a full day (16 hours) with two others, gathering 3500 images in total between the three of us, and then at the end, he asked for my memory cards, put them in his laptop, formatted my cards, thanked me, and then I emailed him asking how the images were the next day, I never heard from him, so I called directly and he said they were fantastic and that the couple loved my shots as a secondary shooter with all the candids and product shots I did of the rings and flowers etc and even being creative and photographing the other photographers shooting the bride in her home and so on...I never heard from him again. I was ripped off. I would name and shame the website but I am unsure if I can do that on here so I will refrain unless given the green light. That guy made $15,000 that Wedding at my expense and my own gear used. So...be wary about who 'pro's' are also when looking!

6.) I have since done other Weddings in my spare time for decent pay and although they are crazy, it is enjoyable.

IF you want to second shoot;

1.) Go as a GUEST. Be just like anyone else.
2.) PRETEND though in your mind you are a second shooter.
3.) You need to BE AWARE though of the actual second shooter and pro at all times. Never get in their way, always wait until they are done with whatever they do. Shoot them shooting the Bride, Groom and so on from time to time...show it to the photographers when they have a spare moment. Ask them if they would like the photos, get their card to email the photos to them. Just do it for free.
4.) Shoot details they miss. Did they shoot the flower arrangement? No? Then go for it. If at the Bride's house and you can get the chance to shoot the rings without interfering and with the Brides permission, do it!
5.) Shoot CANDIDS. Do lots of these! Ditch the flash and hone on your low light skills! People love them. People clinking glasses, generally chatter and expressions in faces, etc! The Bride and Groom love seeing their grumpy Grandpas who never smile when asked caught in a candid photo laughing and smile while holding their grand-daughters in a dance.
6.) As a Wedding present, make them a small Wedding Album of 200 photos in 5x4 print. It won't cost you more than $50 for the prints and a fair album. Get cards made up and include one in the album promoting yourself as a Photographer. Word of mouth is the best advertising!

I hope this helps. Good luck.

[ricktas]

5.) I then had Wedding Photos which I approached a 'pro' photographer with as a portfolio. He loved them and definitely saw me coming...he smooth talked me and I agreed to work as an 'internship' style and if all worked out well then I would get regular paid work with my own client flow. I shot a full day (16 hours) with two others, gathering 3500 images in total between the three of us, and then at the end, he asked for my memory cards, put them in his laptop, formatted my cards, thanked me, and then I emailed him asking how the images were the next day, I never heard from him, so I called directly and he said they were fantastic and that the couple loved my shots as a secondary shooter with all the candids and product shots I did of the rings and flowers etc and even being creative and photographing the other photographers shooting the bride in her home and so on...I never heard from him again. I was ripped off. I would name and shame the website but I am unsure if I can do that on here so I will refrain unless given the green light. That guy made $15,000 that Wedding at my expense and my own gear used. So...be wary about who 'pro's' are also when looking!



You are allowed to name them, but be aware that you are also legally responsible for the content you post to AP, and thus you have to weigh up if it is worthwhile being summoned to court, if the person decides to pursue your version of events as been non-factual (ie slanderous).

So if you feel you wish to name them, go right ahead.

[ricktas]

The OP has not been back on AP since the day they started this thread, but at least the information in it, is good for others to consider, if they are thinking of pursuing a second shooter role.

[yummymummy]

The OP has not been back on AP since the day they started this thread, but at least the information in it, is good for others to consider, if they are thinking of pursuing a second shooter role.

not really surprising there is it? :-/

[townsvillegirl]

.
.

However if someone wants to become a second shooter, they should approach the local wedding photographers and apply for the role, themselves. Getting the wedding couple to ask (on your behalf) as the original poster did, is not the way to go. If you apply for any job, do you get your mum to do it, or your next door neighbour, or a friend? No, you apply for the position yourself, and being a second shooter is no different.

The OP should have found out who the photographer was, arranged an appointment, gone along, with a portfolio and been interviewed, just like any other employment seeking.

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE=townsvillegirl;1118115][QUOTE=ricktas;1116104].
.

However if someone wants to become a second shooter, they should approach the local wedding photographers and apply for the role, themselves. Getting the wedding couple to ask (on your behalf) as the original poster did, is not the way to go. If you apply for any job, do you get your mum to do it, or your next door neighbour, or a friend? No, you apply for the position yourself, and being a second shooter is no different.

The OP should have found out who the photographer was, arranged an appointment, gone along, with a portfolio and been interviewed, just like any other employment seeking.



EXCUSE ME PLEASE
1. how do i build a portfolio and show a photgrapher thats why i want to tag along to a wedding to get some experience and photos then show them off.
2. i got the couple to ask their photographer out of RESPECT for them and to be COURTEOUS sorry for trying to be NICE

- - - Updated - - -


The OP has not been back on AP since the day they started this thread, but at least the information in it, is good for others to consider, if they are thinking of pursuing a second shooter role.


I DO HAVE A LIFE SOME PEOPLE GET BUSY

DONT BE SO RUDE

[I @ M]

EXCUSE ME PLEASE


Gees, settle ---
I reckon you were offered some pretty fair advice in this thread but flipping the lid like you have with your reply makes me wonder whether you have the demeanour to actually even contemplate being anyone's assistant let alone at a wedding where tact, courtesy and manners run a very very close place to photographic ability.

How about you have a bit of a relax and show us some of your work and let some experienced heads on here advise you whether you approach the mark photographically to be an assistant and we can work on the attitude later. :)

[townsvillegirl]

when i started out with photography a year ago or so, and i wanted to get into weddings, yet had no experience with either yet, i did a few things to get there;

1.) first of all, i built my basic knowledge of photography up enough to the point i felt competent to operate and use my camera in manual settings as well as understanding the basics of raw and post processing, this took around 4-5 months for me where in that time i did a short course at tafe also.

2.) i then read on forums and in photo magazines as much information i could about wedding photography in particular. This learning process for any sort of photography is on-going and you never stop!

3.) i then went onto gumtree and posted in-short that i was inexperienced yet i was looking for work shooting a small function like a party, and that i would shoot it for free and provide the photos on disk, and if the client was happy, i would appreciate a tip of some sort if they chose to, yet was not essential. I got messaged by a couple and i shot their party at a park...from memory i got around 300 photos (i considered that a lot back then...but it isn't!) over the space of around 6-7 hours and they were thankfully very happy with the photos. I made about $350 from it. I did quite a few of these type of functions and the more i did, the more portfolio photos i had to use to warrant that i had experience, and more importantly, give the client confidence in my ability.

4.) i did my first wedding by myself which was medium sized (around 200 people), and that was a long, hard day. I do not recommend doing it solo, it was actually a very stupid thing to do. It threw me right into the deep end and i got the classic wedding problems (one in particular on the day was, the previous wedding was delayed, so therefore the ceremony was delayed for the couple i was shooting, so the original plan of going to the harbour bridge in sydney went down the drain despite me going to the location a day or so prior to check the best place to shoot around there in the quickest time so we could get back to the reception for the limo drivers...so they had no idea where else to go, and i had to check my phone to find a park nearby instead and so we shot there). I am thankful it worked out for the photos, but i was shattered mentally and physically by the end of it and had no idea the amount of work i would do. 15 hours without a break, then post processing that would follow. Like above, it was a difficult conversation trying to explain to people i needed the attention of the bride and groom at first and then they were free to photograph them. Women in particular are very territorial and notorious for this and generally disregarded my wishes, which then i had to explain to them the consequences of photos that were not optimal and that if they personally wished that upon the couple for someone they had paid, to which they quickly backed off. I suggest you first do small functions and parties, build up the portfolio that way...

5.) i then had wedding photos which i approached a 'pro' photographer with as a portfolio. He loved them and definitely saw me coming...he smooth talked me and i agreed to work as an 'internship' style and if all worked out well then i would get regular paid work with my own client flow. I shot a full day (16 hours) with two others, gathering 3500 images in total between the three of us, and then at the end, he asked for my memory cards, put them in his laptop, formatted my cards, thanked me, and then i emailed him asking how the images were the next day, i never heard from him, so i called directly and he said they were fantastic and that the couple loved my shots as a secondary shooter with all the candids and product shots i did of the rings and flowers etc and even being creative and photographing the other photographers shooting the bride in her home and so on...i never heard from him again. I was ripped off. I would name and shame the website but i am unsure if i can do that on here so i will refrain unless given the green light. That guy made $15,000 that wedding at my expense and my own gear used. So...be wary about who 'pro's' are also when looking!

6.) i have since done other weddings in my spare time for decent pay and although they are crazy, it is enjoyable.

If you want to second shoot;

1.) go as a guest. Be just like anyone else.
2.) pretend though in your mind you are a second shooter.
3.) you need to be aware though of the actual second shooter and pro at all times. Never get in their way, always wait until they are done with whatever they do. Shoot them shooting the bride, groom and so on from time to time...show it to the photographers when they have a spare moment. Ask them if they would like the photos, get their card to email the photos to them. Just do it for free.
4.) shoot details they miss. Did they shoot the flower arrangement? No? Then go for it. If at the bride's house and you can get the chance to shoot the rings without interfering and with the brides permission, do it!
5.) shoot candids. Do lots of these! Ditch the flash and hone on your low light skills! People love them. People clinking glasses, generally chatter and expressions in faces, etc! The bride and groom love seeing their grumpy grandpas who never smile when asked caught in a candid photo laughing and smile while holding their grand-daughters in a dance.
6.) as a wedding present, make them a small wedding album of 200 photos in 5x4 print. It won't cost you more than $50 for the prints and a fair album. Get cards made up and include one in the album promoting yourself as a photographer. Word of mouth is the best advertising!

I hope this helps. Good luck.






thankyou so much very much appreciated

- - - Updated - - -


I asked this self same question to a local professional who came over to offer me advice on the wedding my wife and I shot.

I put to him when he does a wedding could I tag along and take shots here and there as to not get in his way and ruin his flow for the day.
At first he said no (because he always likes to work alone regardless of what he does=said he is very jealous about his work) then after awhile turned and said to me that he "may" have something upcoming but to use the wedding I was doing as an experience to know what he would be shooting on the day as to not get in the way.

Seems there are MANY variables in being a 2nd shooter (AND even as an assistant if you want). However I think togs really should remember thier background in regards of how they started as a 2nd shooter is no threat to thier current paid job if the person does what is told. A shame some (well alot now days) a greedy in regards to a shoot and dont want to impart knowledge (this latter part has nthing to do with 2bd shooter @ a wedding)



thanks wazza appreciate your kind words

[Warbler]

When I was young, I used to enjoy watching people shoot themselves in the foot. These days it's so common, I no longer get a kick out of it.

[ricktas]

Gees, settle ---
I reckon you were offered some pretty fair advice in this thread but flipping the lid like you have with your reply makes me wonder whether you have the demeanour to actually even contemplate being anyone's assistant let alone at a wedding where tact, courtesy and manners run a very very close place to photographic ability.

How about you have a bit of a relax and show us some of your work and let some experienced heads on here advise you whether you approach the mark photographically to be an assistant and we can work on the attitude later. :)

Agree! and if Townsvillegirl is that busy that it takes you a week to get back to your own discussion, then professional photography is not for you! and you need to be a bit less feisty if you want to be employed as a second shooter. You need to be able to do what you are told to do, without questioning it. If you fired up at me like that on a shoot, you would be outa there so fast your head would spin! Remember it is you who said you did not understand why professional photographers get so upset... Well we get upset when beginners think they can tell us how to run our businesses.

You wanted your question answered, it was, and you did not like the answer. So who is wrong in this scenario? and who needs to change their attitude?

we want:

* someone who can contact us directly and be interviewed by us.
* someone who doesn't turn up an hour late and say "I have a life, I got busy".
* someone who can take on board constructive feedback and not get annoyed by it.
* someone with good photography skills who is smart enough to use family and friends to take photos of, and build their portfolio.
* someone who shows initiative and doesn't expect us to have to tell and show them everything.

[AVALANCHE]

You are allowed to name them, but be aware that you are also legally responsible for the content you post to AP, and thus you have to weigh up if it is worthwhile being summoned to court, if the person decides to pursue your version of events as been non-factual (ie slanderous).

So if you feel you wish to name them, go right ahead.

Good points, I will forfeit on that then.

Cheers Ricktas.

[ricktas]

I have closed the OP's account at their request!