Oops did I 'copy' your composition?

[Dylan & Marianne]

I expressed some thoughts about various things in a recent blog including the concept of 'copying' or emulating images which have inspired you.
I do it, and I think we all do it to some degree!
If you were interested, head on here to have a read :

Confessions of a copycat....... (http://everlookphotography.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/confessions-of-a-copycat/)

[I @ M]

Thank you Dylan, I really can't find anything in that blog article to disagree with. :th3:

I will raise one small point and it relates to landscapes in particular. There are a few AP members living in this little area and of course a few rather "iconic" locations that tend to be photographed frequently.

One photo that I have taken and never put on the net or shown to other people let alone the AP members has been taken in an almost identical fashion and composition by at least 2 AP members and a variety of of other photographers whose work I have seen posted on other sites.
They can't be copying my photo simply because they haven't seen it. I haven't copied other photographers shots because I have only seen them long after my shot was taken.
I reckon that many of the photographers who have taken the almost identical shots are also probably blissfully unaware of many or all of the other shots taken.

Are all the people who have taken that shot seeing the same subject through the same brilliant compositional eyes or are we all simply blind to alternate compositions? :D

[Dylan & Marianne]

thanks andrew! I reckon some scenes are like black holes - they just suck you into a certain style lol (inadvertently or not :P)

[ricktas]

If copying was treated that seriously, every sunrise ocean rocks with misty water would be guilty as charged, or every airbrushed glamour bikini model photo with spatulas of make-up applied are all copies as well.

I take photos of what I like and want to take them of, and sometimes someone somewhere has also taken a similar one, but I do not see that as copying.

[Film Street]

I think 'influence' is a better way to see it. It's similar with music. You like something and take a part of it into your own style.

It's evolution.

[Kym]

I guess the term cliché comes to mind.

We have lots of them...
Adelaide - River Torrens at night
Adelaide - Pt Willunga poles
Sydney - coathanger
Sydney - almost anything of the foreshore
Outback - Ayers Rock, the Olgas etc
Motoring - girl drapped over car/bike
Flowers - Bee in F or water drops on rose
etc.

BUT! How do we learn? - we all do it by emulating
It's when we get experienced we try new and different things

[Dylan & Marianne]

just to put the blog post in context using a certain 'tree' in binalong bay.
I first saw that tree photographed by a chap called Matthew Stewart - asked him about the location and he kindly let me know where it was - I had some pretty different takes on the scene to his shots which inspired me to go there in the first place - I don't consider that copying.

Marianne took one shot which was the one published recently - to get this shot, you have to find a particular rock pool set up the tripod very low to the ground.
Recently, on 500px, we saw an image which from the thumbnail, we actually wondered if someone had copied our picture and posted it as their own. To get this almost identical composition you would have had to have been referencing the composition . The chances of this being pure chance are pretty much next to nil. I don't have an issue with this photographer emulating marianne's work but to then place it for sale and with no reference at all to the image from which it stemmed? Seems wrong to me but once again that's only my opinion and there is that miniscule chance that this was all pure fluke. I'm not asking that people agree with my viewpoint - it's just interesting to see others' viewpoints about the topic. (likewise, you may just accept that I don't agree with yours ;)

Film street, I agree - though if the new product is an almost exact replica of the original, I think evolution just took the babiest of foosteps!

Rick, I'm talking about sunrise ocean rocks with misty water where the rocks fall in the almost identical location in the composition, landmarks (such as the tree) are in the almost identical, the makeup the same, the pose and focal length and lighting the same, the skin tones the same , the outfit identical. I tried to get my horseshoe falls shot as close to Kah Kit Yoongs as I could but didn't - this chap who copied Marianne's tree did a much better job!

oops I forgot to add : Cliche becomes cliche for a reason though doesn't it !

[ricktas]

People copy the Mona Lisa almost daily. It happens. i reckon rather than lamenting the possibility that this photographer copied Marianne's, you need to be positive and accept it as a form of flattery (if they did really copy her work). It could be co-incidental, or not.

[Debra Faulkner]

A very thoughtful and well written article, Dylan. Thank you for taking the time to share it with us :th3:.

[Dylan & Marianne]

we do try to tell ourselves that , but we also like to keep a lid on the inflating head syndrome which could develop!

[ricktas]

we do try to tell ourselves that , but we also like to keep a lid on the inflating head syndrome which could develop!

be careful, you might end up looking like a thunderbird :rolleyes:

[Dylan & Marianne]

[pin]------------------->[bubble]

POP!

[swifty]

What it comes down to is intention, I think.
Sooner or later someone's gonna shoot close to exactly the same image as yours, with or without ever seeing your piece.
It could be done coincidentally, subconsciously or very deliberately.
The crux of it is whether there was any deceit. If someone wanted to copy a piece and proudly proclaims I'm emulating the work of someone I look up to, then all good.
If he/she comes up with the same image with no preconceived idea to copy, also all good.
If he/she intently copies and passes it off as an original, not much you can do about it. They will have to live with their conscious I guess (if it exists).
But I can understand how it might make you feel. Especially if it should happen more than once (eg. Someone continuously copies your work but passing it as their original).

It's very difficult though cos I feel I very likely fall into the subconsciously copying category on many occasions. I never try to copy but cos I look at photos all the time, when I'm out shooting I usually have a 'vision' in my head of what I want the outcome to be and I'm not so sure that vision is always mine. Probably an amalgamation of a lot of things I've seen.

An example is the recent Vivid Sydney exhibition which was a photographer's delight and attended by many APers. I actively tried to take shots of things I hadn't already seen but in the end my shots are probably not much different to most out there.
It's not easy to be original these days.

[Dylan & Marianne]

agreed swifty !- ps. the binalong bay person was someone who followed our work on 500px - hence we know they have seen our version before -

[old dog]

thanks Dylan for that. For me personally, I`m really happy just being in a beautiful location and I thank the big guy for providing it in the first place. Because the world is such a huge place, the chance of getting back to a favorite spot is fairly small so I try and make the most of it. I don`t even think about what I`ve seen taken by others before me. I am very happy with my photography and yearn to be better...just for me to enjoy and if others like what I do then that is a bonus. I love your work and am very happy for you and Marianne that this is a great hobby for you both....and I try not to copy....:D

[swifty]

agreed swifty !- ps. the binalong bay person was someone who followed our work on 500px - hence we know they have seen our version before -

Just wondering. How would you and Marianne feel if the other bloke stated you guys inspired him to try and emulate your work?
In other words, credited your work in some way.

In all honesty Dylan, you guys do fantastic work. I'm not pumping you with hot air or anything but its not surprising ppl would want to try and emulate your landscapes. I wish I had that problem.
Same as with those ppl that ask whether your shots were photoshopped, take it as a compliment mate.

But if this photographer continues to copy your stuff shot by shot without due credit. Maybe make contact in a friendly manner. You might be pleasantly surprised, or in the least alert him to the fact you're onto him.

[Shelley]

Great read Dylan. I just wish I was a good copy landscaper,lol. Never really thought about what you blogged before.

It's nice when another photographer acknowledges your influence in their photograph.

[Dylan & Marianne]

thanks guys :)
Shelley - yea, I'm pretty bad at copying too I found lol
Swifty - come to think of it, I think our reaction all boiled down to a personal sore spot and nothing we think should become systemic. Perhaps it's just us taking the 'do unto others....' line a little too seriously. Another point I didn't add was that I actually it's completely OK to do the attempted exact replica as a learning experience, but then to use those images for personal gain? There was another little incident that comes to mind where a photographer friend of a B&G tagged along with us for 'experience'. She snapped away at our setup shots but then proceeded to use those images to promote her own wedding photography? we found that a little odd too along the same kind of lines .
Graeme, I like it, comments like yours kind of bring us back to earth from up upon the high horse lol

[ricktas]

Rick, I'm talking about sunrise ocean rocks with misty water where the rocks fall in the almost identical location in the composition, landmarks (such as the tree) are in the almost identical, the makeup the same, the pose and focal length and lighting the same, the skin tones the same , the outfit identical. I tried to get my horseshoe falls shot as close to Kah Kit Yoongs as I could but didn't - this chap who copied Marianne's tree did a much better job!

oops I forgot to add : Cliche becomes cliche for a reason though doesn't it !

Certainly there is a chance the person(s) have seen and decided to emulate someone else's photos (yours or perhaps another person). After all, it could be that two people went to the location that day, and the other one had seen your work and said to his mate 'come over here, there is a really cool small pond we can use in the foreground'. In the end your photo will be different cause different times mean different tidal levels, different sun positions so that shadows are slightly different, the sky is never the same twice, clouds will be different. Unless the photos were taken at the same time/day you were there. But it will never be the same as your work.

I noticed on your blog that someone has replied commenting about those that keep locations secret. I can be one of those. I have (had) a secret place I call fungi gully, where during fungi season there is a huge range of fungi species appearing all within about a 400 metre long area. It has a walking track through it, that is rarely used. But on occasion, I have gone there to find all the fungi anywhere near the track has been destroyed by someone. My thoughts are that sometimes it is best to keep a location quiet in case it becomes a 'tourist attraction', and thus ruins the very reason it exists. Some Hobart AP members know where it is, cause I have taken them to it. But keeping a location secret is something worth considering, if you think it is ultra special and by giving out the details, there could be destruction of that area.

But I have digresses slightly here.

Utlimately, what can you do about someone taking a photo that is very similar to your own, we do not own the rights to a location, and cannot stop someone going there and taking photos. I have also seen this discussion about post processing methods, where someone has 'invented' a PP style and then they find someone else using a similar style and become bothered by it.

I do not believe their is a solution, other than to accept it happens.

[Steve Axford]

Rick - I think your protection of the mushroom location is to protect the environment, not to hide your photo site from other photographers. Like you, I object to anyone trashing a location and I have found that the best protection against that is to walk for an hour. If you do that then very few people well ever get there. You can tell the world of your find, and still nobody will go. After all, 1 hour is a long walk - isn't it? :eek:
If it's an easy location to get to, then you may need to hide it a bit, but if it's easy to get to then it will be found. Of course, mushrooms come up when it's raining and that keeps people away too.

[Dylan & Marianne]

I do not believe their is a solution, other than to accept it happens. - as alluded to in the last paragraph of the blog ;)

I agree with Steve and you about the environmental issue - for instance,if I did a naughty and went trespassing to get a shot (intentionally or unintentionally) - I wouldn't want to publicly reveal that spot either

[zollo]

I agree that for learning purposes trying to copy someone's work rock for rock may be beneficial. In fact, our lecturer encouraged us to do it while doing assignments for tafe. It lets you see which principles of composition they applied if any! What I ended up finding out though, is that often I would actually prefer my own compositions to theirs, and trying to copy someone's work would often be more of a struggle than coming up with my own compositions. To boot, I could never pass off someone else's compositions as my own for monetary gain, i would end up feeling empty about the photo.

So I stopped looking at others works and concentrated on coming up with my own style, Which I am still very much working on. Sometimes I will photograph a scene only to find a very similar photo online already, so my guess is, that it's going to happen. Although the fact that this other photographer is "following" Dylan and Marianne is highly suspect. Not having seen this photographers work, I will say that if he/she doesn't work on developing their own style of photography, the person will struggle in a sea of other photographs all of the same thing/area/location and will become an 'also ran' ( hope that's not putting it too harshly )


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[outstar79]

I try....sometimes unsuccessfully to emulate certain photographers and as a point of learning it's fine but agree with Zollo above - you do have to step beyond that and find your own niche and style.
For me though, it's less about photographing the same scene but more the process they used to achieve a particular element in the shot - such as my sunbursts :)
Though while I see all these beautiful scenes photographers take - like your NZ series and Iceland - it does make me want to go there and shoot my own take on it. :D

[Dylan & Marianne]

haha thanks adam - I think I'm reasonably open regarding to how I take images and if people want to emulate, then I must be doing something right ;)
I found it really interesting that a fantastic photographer on flickr (andywon ) read my blog and stated that he was standing at a waterfall with his iphone using my pic as a reference trying to figure out where I took it from!
I had no objection to that for a strange a personal reason as we'd had good dialogue over the years as opposed to the Binalong Bay tree example

[Xenedis]

It's very difficult these days to do something, photographically, that is truly original.

I am not sure if any other people have ever set out to reproduce their own takes on images I've previously shot, but one day I discovered that one of my Flickr contacts (whom I've also met) shot a a very similar composition of a rock formation I had photographed a few years ago at Long Reef.

The scene isn't one that would be commonly photographed. Whether or not he'd seen my image, I don't know. I'm not worried about it either way. I was just amazed to see something so similar to my image (compositionally) -- I recognised the two rocks, and their placement was much the same as mine.

Even if someone attempts to copy my image, it can never be the same. Compositionally, it can be close, but unless the person uses the exact same tripod, head, camera, lens, focal length and aperture I did, and placed the tripod in exactly the same position with the exact same angle -- all rather impossible -- it can never be exactly the same.

And then there's the issue of the sky, the sun, clouds, tides or whatever.

If people do copy my compositional or processing styles, I'm not bothered.

I'm more interested in doing what I like doing, and sharing with others (and helping them along the way) than becoming concerned about being 'copied' or emulated.

I don't keep locations secret, although the notion of discovering a great place that seemingly few if any others have shot, is rather appealing.

For me, doing what I like doing, and doing it well, takes priority over worry about what other people are doing and whether it's similar in any way to what I'm doing.

We can all learn from each other, and if someone goes out and shoots a very similar image to one I had shot, and does it better, it just might give me inspiration to go out and shoot an even better image than I did the first time.

[outstar79]

haha thanks adam - I think I'm reasonably open regarding to how I take images and if people want to emulate, then I must be doing something right ;)
I found it really interesting that a fantastic photographer on flickr (andywon ) read my blog and stated that he was standing at a waterfall with his iphone using my pic as a reference trying to figure out where I took it from!
I had no objection to that for a strange a personal reason as we'd had good dialogue over the years as opposed to the Binalong Bay tree example

Just looked at his stuff - truly amazing! He has an artistic flair for a physicist :D

[I @ M]

It's very difficult these days to do something, photographically, that is truly original.

Amen.


Just looked at his stuff - truly amazing! He has an artistic flair for a physicist :D

I don't believe artistic flair is in anyway governed by or a result of a persons occupation.
As an example, I know a guy who has worked in the timber industry cutting down trees and who now works on oil and gas rigs in Bass Strait yet his ability to draw cartoons in seconds rivals or exceeds many well published cartoonists from the national if not international press.
At the other end of the spectrum, we see people with highly trained scientific minds producing enviable art.
I think perhaps that the artistic talent that they had in the first place influences their ability to have success in other careers rather than vice versa.

[outstar79]

Amen.



I don't believe artistic flair is in anyway governed by or a result of a persons occupation.
As an example, I know a guy who has worked in the timber industry cutting down trees and who now works on oil and gas rigs in Bass Strait yet his ability to draw cartoons in seconds rivals or exceeds many well published cartoonists from the national if not international press.
At the other end of the spectrum, we see people with highly trained scientific minds producing enviable art.
I think perhaps that the artistic talent that they had in the first place influences their ability to have success in other careers rather than vice versa.

Oh I wholeheartedly agree - I know plenty of highly trained scientists, doctors and engineers that enjoy the escapism that the arts (such as this) can create. This site alone has a wide range of professional backgrounds and are able to create some very beautiful images.
And as Andywon as a physicist - I'd emulate his work for sure, just wouldn't be as successful :)

[Dylan & Marianne]

Hey adam, did you know I'm a general physician lol - escapism indeed!

[gerry]

Hey Dylan, some good response so far so and after reading this post (G Dan Mitchell) it reminded me of a recent issue somewhat similar - more relates to icons but address the side of teh same composition, there is some great discussion about it there too.

http://www.gdanmitchell.com/2012/08/17/photographing-icons-or-not

For me, the crux of it just means one should try and push to achieve something different and those that do and do it well will be copied especially now in the way images are published and shared online, there is very little you can do about it, but anyone worth knowing can usually see through people that try and copy the exact compositions.

[Dylan & Marianne]

thanks for the link gerry ! will try to read it to fill in gaps at work hehe