Defects in D800 [Archive] - AusPhotography:: Australia's Premier Photography Forum::

mongo

20-06-2012, 3:35pm

As indicated before, Mongo has waited 8 years to upgrade his camera body waiting for the quantum leap instead of the yearly incremental steps from his D200. So he bought a D800 about a month or so ago and about $3500 later. In many respects the camera disappoints but some are to scared to say so. More and more Mongo sees others on the net pointing out faults. They ring a familiar bell with Mongo.

Speaking to Sar recently, we both seem to have had at least one similar negative experience i.e. the focus seems to just "lock" at times and not refocus when you aim at something else or "freezes" on the object you last focused on and not refocus. Luckily, these were temporary "freezes" which thawed out moments later but annoying nonetheless and what Mongo considers is a design or factory fault !! Many others have reported the same experience on the net. Too many to be a coincidence.

Additionally, Mongo was unhappy with the sharpness/focus he was getting from time to time. There are countless owners who reported the same problem on the net world wide. The specific problem being that the left side AF sensors do not focus accurately. Generally, the middle and right have not been reported as being affected or as badly affected. Mongo did a quick test today to get it out of his head. Unfortunately ,that just put more steam in his head which whistled even more loudly from his ears.

Mongo's results show what he considers to be very bad AF focus from the left sensor(s) slowly improving across the middle sensor to the right sensor which is better again than the left (by far) and the middle (by a noticeable amount). Whilst the right sensor is the best of all, Mongo is in no way convinced that even it is functioning as accurately as it could or should be - it just happen to be the best of a bad lot.

3 test images appear below from far left to middle to right sensors. Mongo took several sets and they are all consistent with the set Mongo has attached here. Mongo thinks the difference is quite evident but becomes even more evident when you look at the first and then the last (skipping the middle image). Moreover, the original images show the differences even more dramatically on Mongo's screen at home.

The images have been standardised in that they have been taken and processed identically. They were taken in Jpeg and no sharpening (except "+1" which had been set in camera) or processing other than reduction for the web has been applied. In any event, Whatever has been done to one image,has been done identically to the others.

Test details: D800 on FX Jpeg fine, tripod, 70-200VR on aperture priority wide open at f2.8 set to 200mm, VR -off, single spot sensor used for AF, ISO 100, spot metering (but note that all exposures were identical in any event i.e 1/800th, f2.8, +0.7EV), distance to subject about 10 to 12 metres, all images were taken within seconds of each other.

Mongo used a 70-200 because of its accuracy and sharpness but set at 200mm. Apparently, this problem is far worse and noticeable when trying to use the AF sensors on a wide angle lens , say, wider than a 50mm.

You wonder how it could ever get through quality control and leave the factory in this state. Mongo has always said that if he wasn't so heavily invested in Nikon gear, he would be buying Canon. Mongo has had enough and it's going back to Nikon tomorrow.

left sensor
90215

middle sensor
90216

right sensor
90217

rellik666

20-06-2012, 3:43pm

Oooh thats not nice Mongo! I wouldn't say any of the images look crisp as the should.

Can you point out where the focus point was on these? On the ivy?

mongo

20-06-2012, 3:51pm

.....Can you point out where the focus point was on these? On the ivy?

Roo it is roughly in the area marked in red. Could not be precise as this data was lost in converting the files for the web

90218

Tommo1965

20-06-2012, 4:19pm

looks like a misalignment of the Af sensor...as you say the far right is the best of the bunch....Ive read posts where this has been fixed is a service..so you should be good after Nikon have realigned the AF array ....a pisser I know. but at least yours is better Than Chris's...his is locking up all the time...in some ways Nikon hit a home run with the D800...but there's a few home goals in there too.

another reason Im waiting... I've vowed never to be a early adopter again after a Pentax K5 fiasco

bricat

20-06-2012, 4:46pm

It doesn't seem to matter which brand you purchase the rush to get it out there before the opposition compromises the end product. The bugs which could be easily fixed with proper testing detract from the pleasure and joy of an expensive purchase. You have had the camera for 1 month and found this fault so what were the original testers doing? Quality control? It would appear the dollar is more important and if there are a few complaints we expect a certain percentage so what...... I dealt with a company that supplies faulty products but they would only replace those who complained the loudest. No compensation just replace product. The fact that it could be a 2 hour replacement job didn't seem to matter to them. I lost many clients over that and of course they told all their friends not to use this product. The damage done far out weighs the recall of a product. Good luck with your endevours. cheers Brian

William

20-06-2012, 4:51pm

Sorry to here that Mongo, I'm sure once the bugs are fixed Mongo will be very happy again , Bit of a bugger though , William can feel your pain :(

jim

20-06-2012, 4:57pm

Disappointing considering how much you invest in these things.

Tommo1965

20-06-2012, 4:57pm

Mongo

just for the sake of it I just tried my D700 with a 60mm micro D lens..and guess what..at the outer most AF points..its soft..come in one point either end and the problem goes away...have you tried your D800 one click in from the outer most points ?

Xebadir

20-06-2012, 5:04pm

Hmm, interesting analysis Mongo. Im particularly concerned that the focus for the middle isn't spot on, as that tends to be where I hunt most frequency. Will be doing a check of mine as well.

I @ M

20-06-2012, 6:00pm

Yep, the problem is real.
It was one of the first things I checked with our bodies and both behave the same way.
The outer left AF point simply isn't.
The problem manifests itself to a greater degree with apertures wider than F/4.
I'm sure that a few have been fixed by now around the globe so sending bodies back now is probably about the right time to start.

I am NOT going to let one small problem mar my experience with a camera that is otherwise excellent and I feel that it is purely going to be a minor focus screen shimming alignment problem ( hopefully ) but at this stage I look at as if it is just another hiccup in photography, not the end of the world.

As for singling out Nikon as being any better or any worse in respect to "new model problems" than any other maker I still reckon they are ahead by a short nose on the right side of the post to most. :rolleyes:

WhoDo

20-06-2012, 6:11pm

D800 owners may be interested in this story from Nikon Rumours:

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/06/18/rumor-second-nikon-d800-firmware-update-coming-out-soon.aspx/

mongo

20-06-2012, 6:30pm

Thanks for all your replies. Waz, is spot on with what has been happening in his attached links.

Contacted Nikon and its going back tomorrow for the firmware update to fix the freeze problem and to correct the well known AF problems of which they appear to have done many recently and they know for sure they can correct it.

zollo

20-06-2012, 6:52pm

as nice as the d800 appears, teething problems are exactly why I have not ditched my d3x in a mad rush for latest and greatest. once problems are established and corrected the 800 will be a formidable camera. dont give up on nikon just yet mongo. the IQ is ahead of a lot of other systems out there.

Art Vandelay

20-06-2012, 7:00pm

Can certainly understand your angst, but on the bright side, it sounds like its a known issue & plans are in place to have it resolved instead of being palmed off as a random event by only a couple of users.
Hope all gets fixed quickly.

Kym

20-06-2012, 7:05pm

Modern cameras are extremely complex mechanically and electronically.
As much testing etc. that goes into them it is impossible to have this tech 100% bug free.
I guess this is why we buy local (support) and not so much grey esp. camera bodies.
I'm sure Nikon will sort this issue PDQ.

mongo

20-06-2012, 8:35pm

forgot to mention that the camera focuses far more accurately on "live view" (which Mongo never uses) because a different set of focusing tools/parameters are used to establish focus. Just interesting to note. Mongo tried it quickly and the focus was far more accurate on live view.

Mongo is certain they will fix it but it is still a big pain to Mongo and countless other owners over the world so it still reflects badly on Nikon. Other manufacturers may have problems like this also from time to time but they do not charge the sort of money Nikon does - so Nikon have a far bigger responsibility to get it right. It is not good enough to for Nikon or for us to think that because it happens to others its OK to happen to one of the most expensive brands as often or as much. That's just what Mongo thinks.

Bear Dale

20-06-2012, 9:08pm

Really sorry to read you going through this with your new purchase.

How long can you own something like this for before you have to send it back to Nikon instead of (if you chose to) take it back to where ever you purchased it from for a full refund as "Not fit for purpose as sold"?

Wayne

21-06-2012, 12:25am

I got mine grey from SG as some may have read. It doesn't exhibit any of the focus point issues, no lock-ups (I updated the "B" firmware as it was released) and whilst I agree Mongo it would be very frustrating with a new toy, Nikon are no worse than any other manufacturer. In fact Nikon have had a good run of recent bodies behaving well out of the box, and some have been excellent performers. Think D3/s, D700 exceptional cameras.

A note as well regarding the cost, Canon's new 5DMKIII is more exe than the D800..

Mine has a production date on the box of 04/12

ricktas

21-06-2012, 6:23am

What firmware do you have Mongo, and is it the latest downloadable one from Nikon? Your camera may not need to go back, just need the firmware update, which Nikon make available so the user can download and update.

We have seen these types of 'teething' issues repeatedly. Remember all the Canon 5D's that had their mirrors fall off?

I too, hold off on buying early batches now, cause of this repeating cycle, not just in camera gear, but all electronics.

Sar NOP

21-06-2012, 6:26am

Hi Mongo,

I was warned by Lance B on this possible AF defect the first day I got my D800.
In the first week, I did a quick check with my 85/1.4G and couldn't detect any anomaly.
Last Monday morning when you called me and told me about this left sensor defect, I did about 10 photos using one of the left farest AF points on my D800. All of the focuses were spot on.
Here is one of them :

200-400 VRI+TC-20EIII, wide open, 1/125", @800mm, AF-C & Dynamic 51-points, handheld.
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/1915/focuspoint.jpg

Crop
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5059/focuspointcrop.jpg

I'm sorry that yours has this focus defect. I'm looking forward to hearing the explanation from Nikon Australia on this problem.
In the meantime, I'm going to do some more tests with my other lenses and with different settings...

AutumnCurl

21-06-2012, 11:26am

I got mine last night - the serial starts in the 8008XXX it has come with the new version of firmware on it. so far all seems ok, but i will endeavour to do some testing today with all my lenses. so fingers crossed its all good :)

I hope the turn around time for you Mongo is a fast one.

rellik666

21-06-2012, 11:46am

As for singling out Nikon as being any better or any worse in respect to "new model problems" than any other maker I still reckon they are ahead by a short nose on the right side of the post to most. :rolleyes:

Other manufacturers may have problems like this also from time to time but they do not charge the sort of money Nikon does - so Nikon have a far bigger responsibility to get it right. It is not good enough to for Nikon or for us to think that because it happens to others its OK to happen to one of the most expensive brands as often or as much. That's just what Mongo thinks.

You should try buying a certain brand new car when they bring out models and let the customers be the testing regime!

Nikon aren't the first and won't be the last to rush a product out to only update it as problems arise!

Frustrating I know, but we do push for these things to be out sooner rather than later! :(

mongo

21-06-2012, 11:52am

A thanks and quick reply to those last comments made by most of you.

Jim, the answer to your question varies but you need to show it is a lemon either incapable of being fixed by the manufacturer or has been attempted to be repaired so many times that it is unreasonable to have it fixed again. This would no doubt help establish it is not of merchantable quality or fit for the purpose.

Wayne, it is true there are some slightly dearer than the nikon D800 but my point was nikon has SLRs that cost nearly $10,000 and if it wants to be in that category of manufacturer, it needs to demonstrate it makes products of a superior quality . Canon does not even come close to this sort of expense for its top of the line.

Rick, even nikon have advised Mongo against doing the firmware upgrade himself and have insisted they are happy to do it for free when calibrating the AF sensors. So, Mongo is going to let them do it all and therefore remain responsible for it all.

Sar, Mongo is very glad you missed out on this problem but make sure you get the firmware update. It will apparently stop the freezing problem

I @ M

21-06-2012, 12:53pm

but i will endeavour to do some testing today with all my lenses.

Testing or observing the l/h AF point issue is not rocket science and fails to even reach pixel peeping levels.

As a clear indication of how it is observable simply set up 3 objects with the same area under the centre, right and left AF sensor points.
Have the camera level on a tripod close to on a flat plane with the targets.

With 51 point AF points set.
Focus, defocus and refocus on the centre object with the centre AF point and take a picture, move the toggle pad to select the far r/h AF point, focus, defocus and refocus and take a picture. Repeat step #2 with the far l/h AF point selected.

These images show it fairly clearly.

Centre AF point selected.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9582534/centre.JPG

and cropped.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9582534/centrec.JPG

R/H AF point selected.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9582534/right.JPG

and cropped.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9582534/rightc.JPG

L/H AF point selected.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9582534/left.JPG

and cropped.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9582534/leftc.JPG

Sar NOP

21-06-2012, 1:56pm

Andrew, so yours has the same problem with the l/h AF point (according to these images test).

I @ M

21-06-2012, 2:30pm

Andrew, so yours has the same problem with the l/h AF point (according to these images test).

Yes Sar, on two bodies with serial numbers 3 units apart.

Wayne

21-06-2012, 3:55pm

A good test as well is to do a similar setup to Andrew, and also use live view, so that contrast detect AF is used directly from the sensor. Compare that to the images made through the viewfinder using phase detect AF, it will quickly show up the focus screen anomalies. Are you guys using CNX2 do show the focus point on your images? I don't have it installed, but will for the purpose of testing, just to reference later.

I @ M

21-06-2012, 6:54pm

The above post of mine relates to checking the focus accuracy of the camera via the viewfinder / mirror / focus screen as that seems to be where the problems lie with most cameras, live view is a different fettle of kish and is not to be relied on as a definitive check of conditions.
Wayne, re the focus point showing, Nikon View NX2 will show the focus point in the full size images but for clarification with those shots the screen cap below shows where the focus point was achieved in these shots. In all 3 cases the point is on almost identical areas of the face in the match box.
Sorry about the red lines against the red box, was the last thing I was thinking about when I did it. :D

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9582534/focus%20point.JPG

Lance B

21-06-2012, 7:39pm

I have been reading reports of the focus issue on the various forums ever since the D800 went on sale and so I am well aware of the issue and how it occurs. Generally, it occurs on the very wide aperture, or fast lenses, like the 24 f1.4G, 35 f1.4G, 50 f1.4G, 85 f1.4G and the misfocus is most prevelent with the left outer AF point manifesting itself as back focus and can also occur as slight back focus on the right outer most AF point. Basically, all the other AF points are spot on for accuracy.

I have checked my D800 using all my lenses and they all have perfect focus using all the various focus points. I have taken about 4,500 images so far and as you can imagine, I use just about every AF focus point in my bird photography and I have never missed a shot due to incorrect focus. I am consistantly using wider apertures as well, so AF inaccuracies would not be masked by DOF. Also, using all my other lenses (see below), the AF seems spot on and again, I am using all the various AF focus points.

However, when using the 85 f1.4G I occassionally get misfocus when using the left AF point and very wide apertures like f2, it is not consistant and most times it is spot on.

I have been in touch with Nikon service and I am waiting for them to advise of whether they know there is a fix. At the moment, the AF issue has not affected any of my photos as it only occurs on the one lens and I can just work around it, so, I am in no real hurry to do anyhting about it at this stage. I would be interested in whether yours is actually fixed or not.

mongo

21-06-2012, 7:41pm

sorry if Mongo misunderstands what you are saying Andrew. Are you saying your cameras exhibit the same problem Mongo is having but that you do not think it significant enough to worry about ???

Maybe Mongo cannot see it as clearly as others can but on the examples you first posted, look roughly the same to Mongo - except that in the last image of that set, the middle matchbox looked less in focus than the left side matchbox and that the left was roughly the same as the right side i.e left and right were roughly the same while the middle was less in focus.

Whichever way Mongo has read you examples, given the very obvious and visible results from Mongo's tests of his camera (particularly at such a short distance with a 200mm supposedly super sharp lens), there would be no way that Mongo would not insist it be fixed or get his money back.

Mongo dropped it off to Nikon today and has been assured it will come back super fixed in all respects. Will let you know Lance and others.

One quick note to those of you who may have dealt with Nikon in Sydney, Steve has been there for years and from Mongo's dealing with him on a number of occasions, Mongo can honestly say he is Nikon's best asset ! Mongo has found him knowledgeable, interested, prepared to listen and do whatever is possible to assist Nikon's customers. A big thanks to Steve.

I @ M

21-06-2012, 8:30pm

Mongo, you are misunderstanding.

Yes, the problem is real.
As I stated originally, the l/h AF point simply isn't that.
It doesn't work, it is useless.
No it is not acceptable.
Yes I will, along with many others be sending the bodies back to have them fixed.

As for the images I posted, the centre AF point and r/h AF point shots are good ( not perfect ) as far as focus goes, the l/h AF point shot is woeful.
There could be some advantage gained from an AF fine tune being done on the centre point image but until the body focusses consistently across all points it is not worth doing.
The issue is not confined to any one lens, I can replicate it with many different lenses and focal lengths. The posted images are taken at F/2.8 with an 85mm F/1.4 lens. I can produce much the same images with a 200mm or 300mm lens at F/4. I can produce the same at 16mm at F/5.6.

Lance, your observations on "back focus" simply don't sit well with me. As far as I know if you are getting a "good" focus on the centre point and substandard performance on both the outer focus points, then the lens either has plenty of field curvature attached to it or is faulty. In the images presented above, the centre point and r/h shot show pretty normal evenness across the image, if there were lens factors at play we would see problems in all images. It is only when the outer l/h AF point is used that we see ugly looks across the entire image. Remember, we are only talking about the area under the focus points which with the Nikon FX bodies is still quite a long way short of the full image so edge softness in lenses etc hardly has any impact.
The most obvious thing to look at with this problem would be lens mount deformity except that we are seeing repeated examples of the problem occurring only at the l/h AF point and no softness at the edges using the centre point.

Ezookiel

21-06-2012, 9:44pm

It's not just Nikon that can have problems. My Canon had focus issues and had to be sent back for some tweaking.
Hope it gets sorted, and that it doesn't take too long. I was told it would be up to 6 weeks to get the Canon back, but it was less than a week. Hopefully yours is back just as quick or quicker. Bit disappointing to say the least when you spend this kind of money and end up with something not perfect.

Lance B

21-06-2012, 10:41pm

Lance, your observations on "back focus" simply don't sit well with me. As far as I know if you are getting a "good" focus on the centre point and substandard performance on both the outer focus points, then the lens either has plenty of field curvature attached to it or is faulty. In the images presented above, the centre point and r/h shot show pretty normal evenness across the image, if there were lens factors at play we would see problems in all images. It is only when the outer l/h AF point is used that we see ugly looks across the entire image. Remember, we are only talking about the area under the focus points which with the Nikon FX bodies is still quite a long way short of the full image so edge softness in lenses etc hardly has any impact.
The most obvious thing to look at with this problem would be lens mount deformity except that we are seeing repeated examples of the problem occurring only at the l/h AF point and no softness at the edges using the centre point.

No, lens curvature has nothing to do with it. It is an issue with the left focus points not being accurate and to a lesser degree the right focus point. So, when I use the left most outer point, there is back focus (sometimes) and when I use the centre points it doesn't BF. This never occured on the D700 or D7000. There is no lens mount deformity, it is a left focus issue, just like those that everybody else has observed on other fora. It is an issue with fast lenses as that is what others have also reported and I believe has something to do with lens focus shift (a common phenomena with wide aperture lenses) and an issue with the left focus point. I know how to test lenses and I know what can and can't happen.

mongo

22-06-2012, 8:56am

...Hope it gets sorted, and that it doesn't take too long.

they promised expedited attention to this problem - literally within days. Mongo clearly got the impression Nikon's reputation is hurting over this and the staff have a directive to give this sort of "repair" top priority.

AutumnCurl

22-06-2012, 1:30pm

I meant endeavour to find enough time in the day to fully test the camera, not work out how to test it.:th3:

I have had no problems with my 50mm at 1.4 on the 51 points.

but to confirm its 100% i will get my uni lecturer to give it a once over and also test it in studio conditions with a focus lens alignment chart.:)

mongo

22-06-2012, 4:27pm

MajorPanic

22-06-2012, 7:21pm

Mongo your not the only one disappointed I have much less trust in my D800 than my D700 (after AF Fine Tune) to give razor sharp images.

My expectation of what constitutes sharp images comes from years of shooting mainly 10X8, 4X5 & medium format cameras.

I have done some testing & thought that specific lenses were just not up to standard (24-70mm for example) but when I pushed it to the limit shooting tiger cubs in low light the lens produced sharp images. Others have reported the 14-24 to be good except in the deep corners but I find the lens soft in the D800. It's MUCH sharper on the D700 so I'm thinking that the AF array is not in critical alignment.
I'm glad to hear NikonAU is across the problem & I'll send the body in for adjustment soon.

Please let us know how you get on.

arthurking83

23-06-2012, 9:24am

.....

but to confirm its 100% i will get my uni lecturer to give it a once over and also test it in studio conditions with a focus lens alignment chart.:)

You don't need a lens alignment chart to confirm if the camera itself is misfocusing.

The tests already shown and explained will confirm if any of the camera's AF points are not working properly.

Live View is your best friend :th3:(either in AF mode or manually focused)

Wayne

23-06-2012, 3:51pm

One thing that seems to be a trend in the testing many have done, is to shoot wide angle <50mm and wide open at less than f/4 WITH a focus distance of several metres at least, not near MFD. I have been reading lots of posts from USA owners on USA boards, who consistently test with this method and it shows the issues very well.

I'm going to do some more testing in coming days, just haven't got around to testing all my glass yet.

arthurking83

23-06-2012, 4:49pm

If there is a problem with AF module alignment, neither the focal length used nor the focus distance set will make any difference, with respect to the outcome of the issue described about the left AF point being so far out of whack.

A wide open or mid range aperture setting will haven an impact as to the severity of the problem and stopping down to a certain degree may mask the problem due to a deeper DOF.
Although in saying that, as the camera has such a high level of resolution, even when stopped down should still highlight the issue but closer to the pixel level when viewing.

Wayne

24-06-2012, 5:55pm

Sylvia

25-06-2012, 2:44pm

My last 2 posts were deleted for infringing the no complaining rule until you have 50 posts or more. Fair enough no more complaining from me.

I am happy to report that Nikon has my 800e for an alleged focus issue for the second time. How good is this. :th3:

I am not complaining and this is not a complaint but merely and observation of good customer service and that all should be aware of this good news.

Thank you Mods and thank you Nikon.

raccoon

25-06-2012, 2:59pm

Just an observation, with all the reviews that have been done by the "experts".
Why was this issue not pick up in their reviews, as it is real problem that seems to be world wide ??????

I @ M

25-06-2012, 3:06pm

Just an observation, with all the reviews that have been done by the "experts".
Why was this issue not pick up in their reviews, as it is real problem that seems to be world wide ??????

Which "experts" are you referring to?

I have seen one review by a reasonably well respected person that has brought it up.
I have seen other reviews by some who I suspect have a distinct bias towards selling products through the parent company of the review web site who either chose to ignore the problem or who had an example that didn't show the fault. :confused013

Lance B

25-06-2012, 3:13pm

Just an observation, with all the reviews that have been done by the "experts".
Why was this issue not pick up in their reviews, as it is real problem that seems to be world wide ??????

To be fair to the reviewers, they probably don't have the time nor do they bother testing, absolutely every single aspect of a camera, and from what I have seen reported, the AF issue is really only the extreme left AF point, sometimes the right one but to a lesser degree, and generally only manifests itself with wide aperture lenses at the wider apertures. If they are like me, I have only ever noticed the issue of a very few occassions in my 4500 odd shots and the reviewers could put that down as operator error at the time. I have not had an instance where it has ruined a shot.

Sylvia

25-06-2012, 3:18pm

Just an observation, with all the reviews that have been done by the "experts".
Why was this issue not pick up in their reviews, as it is real problem that seems to be world wide ??????

The alleged focus issues do not affect all bodies, while it IS allegedly widespread, not every body has the alleged issues, and until I reach 50 posts and while keeping to the rules, it is not an issue I can discuss here at least.

Kym

25-06-2012, 6:03pm

@Sylvia ... the 50/30 rule is about protecting you and all members.
We have in the past had people join just to a) promote their product (not fair to paying advertisers who make Ap happen) or b) bag out a competitor (obviously not good).
So while it may seem a bit of an inconvenience we find that by 50posts and 30days membership we have a good idea about the intent of new members.

In the end it makes AP a safe place for you to share your creativity. :th3:

Sar NOP

26-06-2012, 8:37am

I went out with the D800 attached to the 400/2.8VR + TC17EII, shooting 1/2500 f5.6-8 and it was soft on alot of static bird shots.

That's scary, Wayne.
The 400 VR is known to be spot on with its AF on any camera body.

I'm lucky that my 200-400 and 600 VR work perfectly on my D800, even with x2 TC and wide open (on both static and moving subjects).
In the other hand, the combo 200/2 VRII+TC (the all three Nikon ones) doesn't work as good as these two telelenses on the same D800 !

- - - Updated - - -

To be fair to the reviewers, they probably don't have the time nor do they bother testing, absolutely every single aspect of a camera, and from what I have seen reported, the AF issue is really only the extreme left AF point, sometimes the right one but to a lesser degree, and generally only manifests itself with wide aperture lenses at the wider apertures. If they are like me, I have only ever noticed the issue of a very few occassions in my 4500 odd shots and the reviewers could put that down as operator error at the time. I have not had an instance where it has ruined a shot.

Totally agreed with Lance on this point.

mongo

26-06-2012, 9:33am

I went out with the D800 attached to the 400/2.8VR + TC17EII, shooting 1/2500 f5.6-8 and it was soft on alot of static bird shots. This lens is pretty spot on when on my D3s or my previous D700, so the lens alighn is coming out for more testing. I'm almost certain its not the lens.

Mongo is a little shocked too at the results Wayne is getting from his 400 f2.8 on the D800. To Mongo’s knowledge, it is the sharpest lens even with a X2 converter and gives amazing results. If it is not performing well, it is either the D800 focus issues OR it simply does not perform as well on the D800 as it can on other bodies. Try focusing it manually on the D800 as a test as see what results you get.

The above is not surprising in many ways. While MOngo’s D800 is being repaired, he has reacquainted himself with his D200. Mongo is quite certain that his 300 f2.8 with X2 converter is much sharper on that body than it is on the D800 - disappointing but probably true. Mongo says this is not surprising as he believes the D800 will simply magnify any imperfections in any lens and bring them to the surface. If a lens looks great through a D800, then, it must be as good a lens as you can hope for. This has nothing to do with build quality or quality control or auto focus performance - it is simply another aspect of the D800 that Mongo thinks is true and worth mentioning.

Lance B

26-06-2012, 9:37am

Mongo is a little shocked too at the results Wayne is getting from his 400 f2.8 on the D800. To Mongo’s knowledge, it is the sharpest lens even with a X2 converter and gives amazing results. If it is not performing well, it is either the D800 focus issues OR it simply does not perform as well on the D800 as it can on other bodies. Try focusing it manually on the D800 as a test as see what results you get.

The above is not surprising in many ways. While MOngo’s D800 is being repaired, he has reacquainted himself with his D200. Mongo is quite certain that his 300 f2.8 with X2 converter is much sharper on that body than it is on the D800 - disappointing but probably true. Mongo says this is not surprising as he believes the D800 will simply magnify any imperfections in any lens and bring them to the surface. If a lens looks great through a D800, then, it must be as good a lens as you can hope for. This has nothing to do with build quality or quality control or auto focus performance - it is simply another aspect of the D800 that Mongo thinks is true and worth mentioning.

Hmm, the D800 can't make a lens look worse than it does on the D200, it may not make it look any better, but it won't be any worse. However, I am sure that it will look better on the D800 regardless and if you are not seeing the benefit, it must be the AF issues. I have yet to see any lens look worse on the D800, they have all recorded an IQ advantage on the D800.

Sar NOP

26-06-2012, 10:03am

I agree with Lance's statement above.
Again, yesterday I'd been shooting with my D800 and my D2Hs on the 200-400+TCx14 et the 600+TCx17. The pictures always look better with any lens/TC combo on the D800 than on the D2Hs. The HD sensor and more accurate AF system of the D800 do help to get much better results.

mongo, when I compare the NEF files taken with your 300/2.8 AI-S+TC x2 between the D2X and the D800, the IQ from the 36mpix sensor is much better than the one from the 12mpix.

MattNQ

26-06-2012, 10:36am

mongo

26-06-2012, 10:43am

.... I have yet to see any lens look worse on the D800, they have all recorded an IQ advantage on the D800.

MOngo suspects that is because all your lenses are the best available :D. A, lesser lens may look reasonable on a lesser body but Mongo thinks it has the distinct possibility of looking worse on the D800 as Mongo believes the D800 will show up any flaws or imperfections in the lens. Mongo is not certain of this but it is a theory he is currently going with.

BTW to all others watching this thread, Mongo's D800 is ready to be collected from Nikon. He will report the results of their recalibration of the AF sensors as soon as he has run the same tests he ran before he gave it to Nikon to fix.

Lance B

26-06-2012, 10:58am

I'll be interested to see the as yet unpublished D800 review by Thom Hogan. For real world testing, he is one of the best.

I am actually putting my faith in my own testing and those of people I know that know how to use a camera, one such person is Sar, from this forum, and a few others that I know. These are real world people using the camera on every day subjects and the beauty of this is that they are not tainted by product endorsement requirements and I can actually talk to them personally and know how they get their findings.

- - - Updated - - -

MOngo suspects that is because all your lenses are the best available :D.

LOL.

A, lesser lens may look reasonable on a lesser body but Mongo thinks it has the distinct possibility of looking worse on the D800 as Mongo believes the D800 will show up any flaws or imperfections in the lens. Mongo is not certain of this but it is a theory he is currently going with.

I have to respecfully disagree. The lens can't look worse than it does on a lower Mp body, it will still show off the higher resolution of the higher Mp sensor, it might not make as much difference as a higher resolving lens, but you will still see an improvement even a small one. Of course, a lens that has a higher ability to resolve will show off the resolution advantage of the D800 much more, but even a lower res lens will still show some advantage, even if it is a small advantage. A lens simply cannot look worse on a higher res body.

Wayne

26-06-2012, 12:08pm

This is a 100% crop, a little heavy but not that bad.

400/2.8VR + TC17EII @ 1/2500 f/4.8 ISO400 650mm straight out of camera.

Is it soft?
Looking at the water, the DOF to me appears to be consistant with correct focus on the eye or thereabouts. The subject would have been almost 50m from the camera, so even wide open there should be sufficient DOF for the subject.
Am I expecting too much, perhaps failing to recognise that it is a crop from a 36.3mp file, instead of the normal 12.1mp file I'm used to seeing with the D3s and this lens+TC combo?

Sar NOP

26-06-2012, 1:24pm

Wayne, to me this looks like a VR action and/or camera/lens shake. It's not a focus problem.
If the bare lens is sharp wide open, the TCx17 could not reduce the sharpness that bad. Even my 200-400+TCx17 is far better than this wide open.
Have you tried different supports of the lens/camera, with and without VR ? Or handholding the lens with VR ?

Lance B

26-06-2012, 2:50pm

Something wrong here, Wayne. This is wide open, however.

It does look a tad back focused, to me the best point of focus may be the plane of focus at the green blob to the right of the bird in the water and extending to the left just behind the legs and the sticks etc to just behind the birds right leg (our left). So, if we take an arc up to the birds face, then that would be a 200-250mm up but maybe 100mm more towards the camera, indicating that there is a small amount of back focus. ALso, is this at the centre or at the edge of the frame? Maybe if we could see the original image?

Wayne

26-06-2012, 3:30pm

Gents, thanks for your thoughts.

To clarify;

Sar-
Shot with the lens balanced on my WimberleyII head and tripod.
VR was on - normal mode, I never use tripod mode. I also shot a few out of curiosity with VR off, and seems the same result.
Camera shake is very unlikely due to the Wimberley and the shutter speed 1/2500, I can get sharp results hand held at that speed.

Lance-
I agree, it seems to me to be slightly back focused and the plane of focus to me seems to be where you are seeing it.
This was centre AF point, no 3D tracking and multi-area AF (21 points) selected.

Here is the full image;

Lance B

26-06-2012, 3:38pm

That's quite a crop! The "problem" with the D800 is that the bits that are in focus, sort of appear "more" in focus due to the extra resolution afforded, therefore any misfocus seems to be compounded and sticks out like the proverbials and when you crop it, it is highlighted even more. Realistically, the old DOF tables now need to be re-adressed as the extra resolution seems to give us less DOF.

Sar NOP

26-06-2012, 4:01pm

I still think that the soft image is from the camera/lens shake and/or VR action : the beak, eye and neck look sharper than other part of the picture. But there is some kind of double lines along the beak and on the eye. The bokeh doesn't look as smooth as it should be either with this kind of lens.
Blurred image caused by vibrations can happen even at 1/8000" (resonance of frequencies).

Lance B

26-06-2012, 4:43pm

Wayne

26-06-2012, 4:47pm

I think more testing is needed, deliberate testing. I will do that when I'm back next week. I will use MUP to eliminate any slap, and I will lock it down on the Wimberley with and without VR. I use the "AF" on button to focus, so I would have had that held in prior to obtaining focus, and that would have had the VR already on. I do know what you mean with the VR Sar, on elements this big, there is quite a big jolt going on inside the lens barrel when you first activate it with a press of the button and with the increased resolution it may now show as a focus issue when the same thing happened on other lower resolution bodies all along, it was just very difficult to see if you could see it at all.

I agree with your thoughts Lance on the increased resolution, essentially even slight OOF areas show more easily, and the DOF appears smaller than with lower resolution RAW files.

Tommo1965

26-06-2012, 5:09pm

yep not good wayne..Im interested to see how this pans out for you..I did have a play with a D800 in the shop yesterday..it felt quite light next to my D700...perhaps the issue is Mirror slap ?....a test with MLU and without would be interesting....

mongo

26-06-2012, 6:49pm

Wayne , that is a very soft image for whatever reason !

MOngo does not understand why you are playing around with the AF. IF you want to test the lens for pure optical performance (instead of mechanical/AF performance) , just look through the viewfinder and focus it as sharply as you can manually at a stationary object - again using the tripod, high shutter speed (1/2500th should have been plenty) and VR "off" to eliminate VR issues if any. then look at and compare the results. We really need to test this performance before be go into whether or not it is the D800's AF system. If the manual test shows great results, then, it is very likely that it is the D800's AF system that is the problem OR vibration. However, if you get a great manual result, then, that should also eliminate vibration as the cause.This leaves only the D800's AF or VR systems. To eliminate the VR take manual focus images with it on and off and see if that is playing a role. If not , it must be the D800's AF system (including whether or not it is back focusing etc.

last point, what does this exact arrangement come out like on your D700 and D3s ??

Wayne

26-06-2012, 10:02pm

mongo

26-06-2012, 10:23pm

Mongo,

The same lens + TC combo on the D700 and D3s would cut you, razor sharp wide open, 1-2-3 stops down no matter where, with or without VR it is sharp. You are right in saying a manual focus test will eliminate the lens and it is certainly required, however I'm very confident it isn't the lens, as it hasn't had any rough handling etc since last used on the other bodies. I will do the manual test however.

I am also going to test it bare and on the D3s at same time. I will also throw the 200/2VR & AF200/4micro on and see how that goes, given Sar mentioned the 200/2 above. These 3 lenses would be among the highest resolving Nikkors ever, so there can be no questioning their ability if they are working correctly. In any case I would rather have to send the body back to Nikon under warranty than have to CLA the 400/2.8.

excellent. Agree that those 3 lenses have to be some of the sharpest things ever. Keen to see how your tests go. Forgot to mention that for your D800 tests (after the manual tests) DO NOT use anything but a single point AF to test the AF system! Then take several images as Mongo did using the far left, middle and far right AF sensor in turn and compare the images taken at each AF point. If they vary noticeably from each other it is almost certainly the AF calibration of the camera that needs adjustment.
MOngo now has his camera back and will test it tomorrow and let you all know how well Nikon were able to fix the issue. The rain is a pain but will still try and give it a reasonable test tomorrow.

Wayne

26-06-2012, 10:57pm

I will equally be waiting for your results Mongo. My body doesn't exhibit any issues with 24-70, 70-200, 85/1.4(which I would have thought would be a sure culprit if any where going to be an issues), 50/1.4, 17-35.
It has only shown what appears to be an "issue" with the most professional and expensive lens I own, the 400/2.8. I haven't had it on the 200/2 or 200/4 micro yet, so will see in a weeks time....

Bennymiata

27-06-2012, 10:33am

I'm so glad I got a 5D3.
The focussing is amazing!

Lance B

27-06-2012, 1:23pm

I'm so glad I got a 5D3.
The focussing is amazing!

LOL. Pity about the rest of the camera! :D

reaction

27-06-2012, 2:15pm

I'm sure he's just trolling, what Canon user would read 4 pages of Nikon!

It's head to head on the firmware front, 5D3 has more updates than the 5D2 had in the first year, and D800 has more updates than the D700 in its whole life... ? :efelant:

It's clear to me that the 5D2 set the precedent that DSLRs are no longer appliances that should work out-of-box (like a DVD player or TV), but now have firmware fixes throughout their lifetime like PC software. Prior to 5D2 every DSLR would expect 1-2 firmwares during their life, and generally it would not be a fix but to update larger media sizes.

I @ M

27-06-2012, 3:31pm

Some people really do need to do some research before posting in threads such as this one. :rolleyes:

William

27-06-2012, 3:46pm

Would be good if all/both companies would bring out a new camera FF without all the bells and whistles like they used to be , A Kingswood version if you like :confused013

Kym

27-06-2012, 3:55pm

Would be good if all/both companies would bring out a new camera FF without all the bells and whistles like they used to be , A Kingswood version if you like :confused013

Repeating myself...
Modern cameras are extremely complex mechanically and electronically.
As much testing etc. that goes into them it is impossible to have this tech 100% bug free.
I guess this is why we buy local (support) and not so much grey esp. camera bodies.
I'm sure Nikon will sort this issue PDQ.

Modern cameras are very complex pieces of gear and every new feature is an increase in the number system interactions, i.e. an increase in complexity.
A without all the B&Ws model won't happen due to 'consumer demand', i.e. mine is bigger/better/faster than yours (keeping up with the Joneses).

Lets face it, any camera produced in the last few years will do 99.9999% of what is needed without any problems
and far exceeds the needs of most of us.

William

27-06-2012, 4:20pm

I read your original post Kym, No need to repeat ,

This says it all and you said it , Quote :and far exceeds the needs of most of us !!

Getting back to Mongo's D800, Really glad to hear you got your Camera back mate , Looking forward to your test results and hope everything is alright now , Hope I did'nt do anything to it while I played with it up here ;)

kiwi

27-06-2012, 4:29pm

It's only as complex as you want to make it though

If you can choose shutter speed, ISO, and f/stop what more can you need and the controls to do those things haven't really changed for a long time

Bennymiata

27-06-2012, 5:38pm

I do read some of the Nikon stuff too, even though I am a Canon user.

Sorry about the ribbing.:p

Let's face it, Canon and Nikon are fairly similar to each other.
In one generation, one may have slight advantages, only to be usurped in the next generation.
Once you've decided which brand fits your hands better, or you like their menus better etc., and you have a collection of lenses and flashes, it's hard to change brands.

The 5D3 has had its problems too, and none of these highly complex machines are ever going to be perfect.

I hope your problems are solved now Mongo and that your new D800 does a sterling job for you.
I know the D800 is a great camera, as is the 5D3. I'm very happy with mine.

swifty

27-06-2012, 6:03pm

Wayne: jz to add I agree with Sar's assessment of your image. The bokeh quality is reminiscent of when VR goes wrong.
Thought the rule was the sampling frequency of Nikon's VR is only 500htz so shutter speeds exceeding 1/500 generally don't work so well and can cause strange artifacts.
Anecdotally I've used it VR at speeds above 1/500 but never in the 1/2500 region but haven't noticed the strange bokeh qualities in any of my pics.

Duane Pipe

27-06-2012, 6:16pm

Tommo1965

27-06-2012, 6:18pm

I @ M

27-06-2012, 6:39pm

Bill...I think the Leica may fit that description

Errr, hang on, they wanted a camera that will actually take decent photos rather than just being a conversation piece for the cafe latte sipping brigade. :rolleyes:

Lance B

27-06-2012, 6:41pm

Errr, hang on, they wanted a camera that will actually take decent photos rather than just being a conversation piece for the cafe latte sipping brigade. :rolleyes:

:lol:

arthurking83

27-06-2012, 9:03pm

Would be good if all/both companies would bring out a new camera FF without all the bells and whistles like they used to be , A Kingswood version if you like :confused013

Bill...I think the Leica may fit that description

A Leica <-> Kingswood??? :confused:

:scrtch:

A Leica is like a srtipped down super elite luxury car.

Think of Leica as a Rolls Royce Silvar Saliva(or whatever the newest incarnation is called??) .. a Belmont version with wind-up windows, three on the tree, drum font brakes, and hose out rubber floor matting .. only with a few hundred dollars knocked off the million dollar price tag.

Stripping down cameras has nothing to do with increased costing ... so a camera maker producing a stripped down version of a camera is a form of self restriction in marketing terms.
99% of features are simple additions to firmware for these extra functions.
Most of these features are what actually makes cameras better than the previous generation.

No one is compelled to use every feature for a given camera body, but in removing them, or not enabling these features is pointless and doesn't save much money in real terms(maybe a few dollars for the extra firmware code per camera).
But it is these features that sells more cameras, and as they make more cameras, the price per unit goes down. You get cheaper camera with more features.
Can the world be any more perfect?

I can't see the relevance to Mongo's focusing issue here either ... unless by bells and whistles you also mean auto focusing as well?

A Japanese camera maker eliminating AF in one of their cameras??? .... whoa!! .... bold move I reckon.

But no doubt it'd be an instant classic and they could easily sell it as a limited edition for 3x the price of the body it's based upon too.
Use a bit of pseudo leatherette covering in a gaudy disgusting colour, and Andrew's caffe latte sipping brigade will get all frothy with anticipation!

mongo

27-06-2012, 10:37pm

Alright guys - enough chit chat.

Mongo has done some preliminary test With this D800 since getting it back yesterday. He can not post all of the test charts but has put these up for your comments. Needless to say, Mongo is still very unimpressed and unhappy. What do you think of the post fix images.

All taken with 20-200VR at 200 wide open. All images of 3 are taken and combined as left image , middle image and right image i.e in The same order they appear in each image set. At one stage Mongo was starting to think there was something wrong with the left side of his 70-200 so he turned it about 150 degrees and took the images of the chocolate drink container both normally and at 150 degress to exclude any defect in the lens on one side. Still no change so its not the lens. It is the same as before i.e very bad on the left, OK in centre, not really good on right

90434

90433

90436

90439

Wayne

27-06-2012, 10:43pm

Mongo,
Looks like Nikon cleaned it with dust blower and gave it back. I would be showing them the images taken here to further demonstrate.

mongo

27-06-2012, 10:45pm

Mongo,
Looks like Nikon cleaned it with dust blower and gave it back. I would be showing them the images taken here to further demonstrate.

Wayne, Mongo intends to and he may not be happy with another fix either. They will be lucky at this stage if Mongo will even accept another new body altogether . He thinks its time for his money back unless something radical is done.

Feg

27-06-2012, 11:06pm

Spewing.

mongo

28-06-2012, 7:39am

Mongo just realised that the test to exclude the lens as the problem was ill conceived. Rotating the the whole rig through 150 degrees did not, of course, expose a different part of the lens to the left side of the camera's sensors - in fact, the same part of the lens was still over that part of the sensor. So, is it possible that it is the lens at this stage ???? Mongo has a number of very fast lenses but none of the useful ones for this test are AF - they are all manual so can not use those for this purpose.

Even if the AF on the camera has now been fixed (and Mongo is a long way from thinking that it has been), does that mean that a 70-200 VR purchased new and used briefly for less than half a dozen times is defective too ?? MOngo knows the VR1 models were not ideal for FX but they could not be as bad as this is showing up either. This is NOT the the edge of the lens. These images were taken at less than 2/3rds of the distance from the centre of the lens to its edge. In either case (or both) , it is not looking good for new Nikon equipment at this stage.

WhoDo

28-06-2012, 8:09am

That's a ridiculous amount of difference for such an expensive piece of equipment, mongo. Take it back, with the lens, show them the images and point out that either way it's a Nikon problem and it needs to be fixed NOW! This is their flagship camera and a high end lens. I wouldn't accept the results you're getting on a consumer body and kit lens! :eek:

kiwi

28-06-2012, 9:33am

Agree

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Duane Pipe

28-06-2012, 9:46am

I just checked the price of that body Mongo I wouldn't expect anything but perfection from the d800. Get your money back and hang on for a while why they get their crap together. Its time to start another riot mate:violent10:

Tommo1965

28-06-2012, 9:55am

Mongo

can you not use a manual focus lens and focus it using the "in focus" indicator in the view finder..that should yield the same results as if the lens was using AF ?.. obviously still selecting the outer left/right and centre points

I agree that that the images are soft other than the centre...I know how deflating this can be mate..as I had AF issues { low light } with a Pentax K5..and after two bodies and many trips back to my LCS...I finally switched systems in favour of Nikon ..and I only choose Nikon as their AF in the D300s/D700/D3 etc etc was deemed to be the best ...a true shame that the D800 has tainted this almost Teflon reputation ....

test some more { if possible}..if the same results are achieved..return the body..perhaps try another..or wait until Nikon has wheedled all these faulty units out...id wait personally until the body is readily available to test before purchase

EDIT

I assume your using Single point AF ?..and if so.. what's it like if you come in one point from either end.....as I said last week my D700 wasn't so good at the outer extremes of the Af module ...but clicking in one point from the outer extremes improved things greatly...that was using as 60 AFD micro..and I honestly don't know if that's a camera issue or lens..but as I never use those outer AF points..for me its not a problem

Sar NOP

28-06-2012, 10:24am

mongo, if Nikon is not able to fix the AF problem in your D800 ask them to replace it with a D3s !

I @ M

28-06-2012, 10:27am

Mongo

can you not use a manual focus lens and focus it using the "in focus" indicator in the view finder..that should yield the same results as if the lens was using AF ?..

Steve, totally not applicable unfortunately. This is an AF issue and whether the lens is focussed manually or automatically and whether the camera is set to expose an image if focus or release is set in whichever focus mode is irrelevant I'm afraid.

After quite an educational phone call this morning to Sydney it appears that there may be other issues at play with some body lens combinations. All the slight fits of vapours and replacement body howls are still a bit premature at the moment guys. :)

Sar NOP

28-06-2012, 10:58am

I have a friend in France who had an AF problem with her D2Hs+300/2.8 VRII. Nikon France wasn't able to fix it and finally exchanged her D2Hs with a brand new D3s !
They should do the same with the D800...

mongo

28-06-2012, 11:32am

thanks to all of you especially Andrew. Steve, Mongo did try what you said yesterday in an all out attempt to narrow down the issue but as Andrew said there is a bit more to it than what we both thought but Mongo is very grateful for your suggestion.

Nikon have been in touch this morning and in fairness to them, they seem concerned and keen to fix any issue. Mongo will give them all reasonable opportunity before he says more on this. So, let's see how things work out. Mongo will keep you informed.

As MOngo has mentioned before, Steve at Nikon has been and continues to be very helpful and is keeping Mongo's faith alive that Nikon will do all the right things.

Bennymiata

28-06-2012, 11:42am

Could someone out there lend Mongo a known, good auto-focussing lens so he can test his camera again?
I'd be happy to help, but I use Canon.

Knowing Mongo's talents, this must be VERY frustrating for him and I do feel for you Mongo.
Not only is it frustrating, but having to take the camera back to Nikon again and again is such a waste of shooting time too.

Lance B

28-06-2012, 12:03pm

Sar NOP

28-06-2012, 12:23pm

The Live View AF system is different from the one in the camera viewfinder. It's more accurate to use for example a manual focus with the camera focusing indication.

mongo

28-06-2012, 12:25pm

Try focusing with live view, that should indicate whether it is the lens or the AF of the camera.

Thanks Benny and Lance.

Lance, Mongo did that prior to the repair and it did focus much more accurately using live view but Mongo has not tried that test again since getting the camera back. So, he is off to try that and some samples without the filter (although Mongo has serious doubts its the filter doing this).

thanks Sar. Mongo agrees

Art Vandelay

28-06-2012, 12:37pm

mongo

28-06-2012, 12:49pm

Mongo, not sure I agree with sending in the lens as well. The danger is they may adjust the lens to compensate, which will only lead to problems on other cameras. Unless of course it is a problem.

The only real way to eliminate causes is replicate the tests using a different lens and / or a different body with the same lens.

Good luck in having it sorted though, can't imagine your furry little head having too much hair (or feathers ?) left soon.

Mongo agrees and will not be sending in the lens. We have just agreed for me to send the camera back. There has been some initial mention of whether or not it is within the 20 to 30 or so microns for AF adjustment but Mongo will not be accepting it if this is said to be within accepted tolerances. Mongo hopes to do the same test with , hopefully Lances' and Sar's D800 (although he has not asked them yet) just to see how different a good D800 would have performed the same simple tests carried out by Mongo.

etherial

28-06-2012, 12:54pm

I use a product called FoCal which is designed to automatically control your camera to take test shots of a target and then automatically determine the best microadjust settings for your camera/lens combo. (I keep meaning to do a write up about it for AP, must do that when i get my camera!)

General info on the product is here: http://www.reikan.co.uk/focal/index.html

Anyway, they have just released a beta to do a focus sensor check (to detect the issue you are describing here). Here is some more info: http://www.reikan.co.uk/focal/publicbeta.html

Lance B

28-06-2012, 1:07pm

With Live View, I am just trying to ascertain whether the lens has misaligned elements causing one side of the image to be blurry or it has a faulty AF. If one side of the image is blurry, in this case the left side, it can only be from one of two ways:
1) misaligned lens elements, or a faulty lens element
2) faulty AF when using the left sensor point of the camera

When testing the lens, you need to first find out if the lens elements are at fault. You can do this by testing the lens as indicated by Andrew and set up the 3 matchboxes one centre, one left where the left AF point would be in the VF and one where the right AF point would be. Best to do this in live view to eliminate AF issues. Use the centre focus point and focus on the left matchbox and then point the camera so that the central focus point is now aimed at the centre matchbox, but do not refocus. Do the same for the right AF point, then do the same for the centre focus point. Check result. To make sure this test is more accurate, you may need to put the camera on a slide system so that the camera to subject distance doesn't change, which naturally would alter the focus point and distance. If the left matchbox is still in good to reasonable focus, then the lens should be good as it will never be as good as the centre of the lens. The same goes for the right matchbox.

I would also do the same as above using Live View again, but do not move the camera and just have it point straight ahead at the central matchbox. Then using Live View, focus on the left box, take a shot, then the middle and then the right. Check results. They should look similar to the ones you obtained in the first tests or close to it. This should eliminate lens curvature as an issue. However, I sincenrely doubt that this is an issue on a modern designed pro spec lens.

These two tests should eliminate the lens as baing at fault.

To test for AF, set up as above but do not use Live View and rather than use the central AF point to focus on the left and right matchbox and then recomposing, just use the appropriate left most and right most focus points using the camera. Check the results. This should then show you whether the AF points are out of whack.
Do the same

- - - Updated - - -

Mongo agrees and will not be sending in the lens. We have just agreed for me to send the camera back. There has been some initial mention of whether or not it is within the 20 to 30 or so microns for AF adjustment but Mongo will not be accepting it if this is said to be within accepted tolerances. Mongo hopes to do the same test with , hopefully Lances' and Sar's D800 (although he has not asked them yet) just to see how different a good D800 would have performed the same simple tests carried out by Mongo.

I am very unwilling to send mine in at this stage as I have basically zero issue with AF. Every one of my lenses seems to perform flawlessly and perfectly and I have yet to miss a shot with any focus point at any aperture at any distance with any lens in any condition. However, I have had the occassional issue with the left AF point my 85mm f1.4G at wider apertures and at distance, say over 4mts. In fact, the accuracy is so good with all my other lenses that I would rather not upset the apple cart, so to speak! I can live with a few minor issues with the 85/1.4 as it is a lens I use rarely and if I have to I will just focus recompose using the centre bank of focus points which are super accurate even with this lens. I just don't want to risk stuffing up the AF when it works perfectly for all other lenses!

Sar NOP

28-06-2012, 1:19pm

Mongo hopes to do the same test with , hopefully Lances' and Sar's D800 (although he has not asked them yet) just to see how different a good D800 would have performed the same simple tests carried out by Mongo.

I might be able to get out of the shop this coming Sunday afternoon. So if mongo is free, he will be welcome to pick up my D800 and carry out the tests as long as he wishes.
I won't be able to go out birding the next three Monday as it's school holiday (the kids need to be looked after !).

- - - Updated - - -

I use a product called FoCal which is designed to automatically control your camera to take test shots of a target and then automatically determine the best microadjust settings for your camera/lens combo. (I keep meaning to do a write up about it for AP, must do that when i get my camera!)

General info on the product is here: http://www.reikan.co.uk/focal/index.html

Anyway, they have just released a beta to do a focus sensor check (to detect the issue you are describing here). Here is some more info: http://www.reikan.co.uk/focal/publicbeta.html
Yes, a good test chart is always the best way to check the focus.

- - - Updated - - -

To test for AF, set up as above but do not use Live View and rather than use the central AF point to focus on the left and right matchbox and then recomposing, just use the appropriate left most and right most focus points using the camera. Check the results. This should then show you whether the AF points are out of whack.
Do the same

Yes, this is a good procedure to check the camera AF points.

Wayne

28-06-2012, 2:36pm

If Mongo requires an AF pro grade Nikkor lens, I can loan any of mine for testing. I won't be home for a week, but I would be happy to mail one to you for testing if needed.

Choose from;

400/2.8VR - 200/2VR - 200/4Micro - 70-200/2.8VR - 85/1.4D - 24-70/2.8 - 17-35/2.8

Just make sure you mail it back ;)

Sar NOP

28-06-2012, 2:56pm

mongo, choose the 400/2.8 ! :D:D

Wayne

28-06-2012, 3:02pm

mongo, choose the 400/2.8 ! :D:D

Or perhaps Sar will accidentally leave a 600/4VR on the end of his D800 for comparative testing :D

Sar NOP

28-06-2012, 3:07pm

Or perhaps Sar will accidentally leave a 600/4VR on the end of his D800 for comparative testing :D
Sounds good for me...:)

mongo

28-06-2012, 5:18pm

I might be able to get out of the shop this coming Sunday afternoon. So if mongo is free, he will be welcome to pick up my D800 and carry out the tests as long as he wishes.
I won't be able to go out birding the next three Monday as it's school holiday (the kids need to be looked after !).

Sar, that is far too kind of you and Mongo would never put you to that trouble. What I was wanting to do when I next see you is try my 70-200 on your D800 for just a half dozen shots just to see how it should be performing (the lens that is) on the assumption that your D800 seems to be working correctly. That is the extent of the testing Mongo had in mind and it can wait until we meet up again.

Dropped off the D800 again this afternoon with Nikon and we shall see what happens next. To some degree, Mongo has not excluded the lens even though it is new and only used a couple of times briefly on my D200.

Again, sincere thanks for your kind offer.

- - - Updated - - -

If Mongo requires an AF pro grade Nikkor lens, I can loan any of mine for testing. I won't be home for a week, but I would be happy to mail one to you for testing if needed.

Choose from;

400/2.8VR - 200/2VR - 200/4Micro - 70-200/2.8VR - 85/1.4D - 24-70/2.8 - 17-35/2.8

Just make sure you mail it back ;)

Wayne, Mongo is speechless with gratitude at your kind offer also but again, it is far too kind and Mongo will now wait to see what Nikon have to say. Ultimately, when they give Mongo back the camera, he can tell pretty quickly if it is OK without putting other members to any trouble.

Mongo most sincerely thanks all of you for your support and will keep you advised as Mongo knows a lot of you are getting or have D800s and have a real interest in this.

- - - Updated - - -

mongo, choose the 400/2.8 ! :D:D

Sar, behave !

- - - Updated - - -

Or perhaps Sar will accidentally leave a 600/4VR on the end of his D800 for comparative testing :D

:lol: :lol:

Tommo1965

29-06-2012, 2:23pm

Wayne

29-06-2012, 3:27pm

Mongo,

My offer stands, so if at anytime you find you need a lens, simply PM :)
I can see I am going to have a busy weekend testing when I get home...

mongo

29-06-2012, 6:44pm

received this in my inbox a little while ago

this chap was one of the first to get a D800 and post its focusing problems

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/06/29/good-news-theres-an-official-nikon-d800d800e-focusing-fix/

thanks Steve. Mongo read some of this guys posts last week when looking for more info on Mongo's problem. The problem seems to be widespread but inconsistent. Still waiting to hear from Nikon hopefully during next week.

- - - Updated - - -

Mongo,

My offer stands, so if at anytime you find you need a lens, simply PM :)
I can see I am going to have a busy weekend testing when I get home...

Again, Mongo's very big thanks Wayne in relation to the lens offer. BTW do not knock yourself out this weekend testing everything. The problem, if you have it , should become obvious after the first few shots with a good lens. Don't forget to try live view verses AF. If there is a noticeable difference, it could be an indicator that you may have a problem. Good luck and hope your D800 is one of those that has been spared.

IN passing last week , nikon indicated that replacing Mongo's camera was not one of the options they would like to think about right now - they don't have any to replace them with it seems. Still, there is no defence to the option of a refund if it comes to it. Will let people know.

MajorPanic

01-07-2012, 5:46pm

I did some 'Proper' AF testing & found some weird results.

I've had a hard time trying to achieve sharp pictures constantly, some are some aren't....

I used a 50mm f/1.8 lens that is incredibly sharp on the D700 so I figured it'd be OK for the D800
Custom shooting Menu Bank 'A' has all my customisations so I don't use any of the others.

The AF set up for both sets of pix was AF-S & single point selection & a wireless shutter release
Exposure was 125th @ f/1.8 100 ISO, studio flash The camera was mounted on a HUGE Manfrotto 058 tripod

This is the results from my Menu Bank 'A' setup. I also found that the AF hunts if the rear button is used & doesn't if activated via shutter button

http://pix.majorpanic.com/images/BB/AF_2.jpg

This is what I got if I switched to Menu Bank 'B'.....

http://pix.majorpanic.com/images/BB/AF_1.jpg

I've now taken some ordinary photos around the house using the 'B' bank & the results are what I was lead to believe the D800 was capable of.
I really don't know what to make of it....

What do you guys reckon??

Sifor

02-07-2012, 10:23pm

Hi all, new member and new D800 user.

I have read through much of this thread and others on the internet. I've tested my D800 and sample images are below (note the calender isn't 100% flush nor 90 degrees). Interested on the opinions of experienced users like yourselves:

24-70 2.8 @ 29mm 2.8

Far Left - http://u.filepak.com/ZqIr_Left.jpg
Far Right - http://u.filepak.com/bY74_Right.jpg
Original image - http://u.filepak.com/19it_Original.jpg (warning - 15mb)

Not sure if it's worth sending in to Nikon... I don't think it's a major AF miss by any stretch of the imagination, however it seems to be there. I tend to use the centre point for the majority of my images and will often recompose after focusing to achieve the desired result (rather than selecting a specific AF point other than centre).

Thanks in advance for any opinions. It's a shame the D800 has a few flaws, hope they sort it out soon in production..

I @ M

03-07-2012, 4:28am

I did some 'Proper' AF testing & found some weird results.

& a wireless shutter release

I also found that the AF hunts if the rear button is used & doesn't if activated via shutter button

Is your wireless remote the type that is designed to achieve focus with a 1/2 press of the button?

If the answer is yes I am going to hazard a guess that it is one of the same type that has been reported ( with many D### bodies ) to actually override the AF-ON button as well as turning AF-S into AF-C.

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure if it's worth sending in to Nikon... I don't think it's a major AF miss by any stretch of the imagination, however it seems to be there.

That one is entirely up to you I guess but I do wonder about the wisdom of settling for a defective product when there is a fix available.

I tend to use the centre point for the majority of my images and will often recompose after focusing to achieve the desired result (rather than selecting a specific AF point other than centre).

Probably THE BEST way to to obtain out of focus images when using fast apertures.

Sifor

03-07-2012, 8:49am

Probably THE BEST way to to obtain out of focus images when using fast apertures.
Mm true. I'll forget about it for now, will stop down the lens for landscape anyway. Probably the best way to find out if there's an issue is seeing real world results. Besides, I've got 2 year warranty so plenty of time. Thanks mate.

mongo

03-07-2012, 1:03pm

Mongo's D800 is back and he is out testing it this afternoon. Will report this evening .

arthurking83

03-07-2012, 1:41pm

What's important here too is that this is not only a fairly common issue, that's also widely reported, but has been reported by seasoned pros/reviewers.

I've been following Bjorn Rorlslette's similar woes, as so far as I can remember, his personal body has been affected, the NPS loaner was also affected and the second loaner is affected(but as I understand it) to a lesser degree than the other bodies.

it seems that there is no one 'quick fix' for it all and the fix is one that requires specialised equipment at the service centre.

The last comment I've read from Bjorn was that the equipment currently in use by service centres to test for the problem generally come back with 'within specification' results.
That is, apparently there's nothing wrong with the camera, when it's clearly obvious that there is!!

So Bjorn's last comment was how can they correct the affected cameras properly if the testing procedure itself is flawed?

I'm also glad now that I didn't just jump in(which I've been prone to do with some things). I've still been waiting for this lower Mp cheaper end Fx camera(which will hopefully surface soon) as my main concern is to have video on my next DSLR.
Also the Fx sensor is a handy alternative to have access too when required, but I could easily be happy with a D700 for that.
But the closer I get to actually hitting the trigger the more I see the D800 as the better future proposition for my usage.

Once this debacle is sorted tho.

On another note, there are apparently three firmwares to watch for for the camera.

The regular A and B firmware, but also this L firmware.
I've read that many come with L firmware version 1.004 where the latest version of L firmware is v1.006.
This L firmware is actually Distortion Control data, and is used across other cameras, so it's not exclusive to the D800.
The file is found HERE(both Mac and PC versions) (http://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/17162/kw/d800%20distortion%20control)

Is there a possibility that this distortion data may be affecting the camera in some way?

Anyhow Mongo, hope it's now sorted for ya .. for both your sake and mine.

ian66

03-07-2012, 3:38pm

As a fellow D800E owner I am following your story with some interest and I thought that this site may be of interest to you:
http://nikonrumors.com/2012/07/02/nikon-has-a-fix-for-the-d800d800e-asymmetric-focusing-issue.aspx/#ixzz1zTiEPy9e:)

mongo

03-07-2012, 8:34pm

thank you all for following this thread and for your support in Mongo's darkest camera hour. Mongo has started a new thread to report the results (see Mongo's D800 Defects Report). However, if the mods think it should be joined to the original thread , mongo would be grateful if they would move it and Mongo apologises for the inconvenience.

Tommo1965

05-07-2012, 8:14am

good news for people with a faulty D800

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/07/04/nikon-d800e-focusing-update-problem-solved/

I @ M

05-07-2012, 8:29am

good news for people with a faulty D800

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/07/04/nikon-d800e-focusing-update-problem-solved/

Yep, he is reporting what is generally known now but he is only about a week or two late to the party. :D
He does like to promote himself as being first at a lot of things but in reality -------

Sifor

05-07-2012, 7:05pm

I was told it’s basically a case of hooking the camera up to the laser calibration jig, and letting a piece of software run a calibration routine point by point – there are no physical or mechanical adjustments made to the camera. The software then writes this somewhere in the camera’s ROM for future use.

This seems to suggest the issue could be fixed for most people via a firmware update?

I @ M

05-07-2012, 7:52pm

This seems to suggest the issue could be fixed for most people via a firmware update?

Very doubtful, it is a calibration problem that is not entirely consistent with every ( affected ) unit.

As is usual with bodies being manufactured, each one is calibrated individually at the time of manufacture to fall within factory tolerances and it seems that there was a bit of a hiccup in the process in the early days of production.

No big deal really in the scheme of things and it seems that ( so far ) factory rectification is working. :)

arthurking83

05-07-2012, 9:18pm

This seems to suggest the issue could be fixed for most people via a firmware update?

Not if the calibration of the AF module is out(which is what's obviously happened to the affected D800s)
For the AF calibration to be correctly set, it would have to be done on a per camera basis, as each camera could be incorrectly calibrated by varying degrees of inaccuracy.

Think of it as AF fine tune adjustment. All modern higher end cameras have it now, and a standardised firmware fix would be akin to claiming that all 85mm f/1.4 lenses require an AF fine tune of -10.

That is your camera, my camera, Mango's camera, Andrew's camera and even Lance's camera, who has no AF issues!! all require a AF fine tune of -10 for any 85/1.4 lens.

ie. it's not so simple.

Sifor

05-07-2012, 9:24pm

ie. it's not so simple.

Thought so, but would've been nice..

Lance B

05-07-2012, 10:15pm

A software fix actually makes sense when you think about it.

From what I can understand of the issue, it was basically the left AF point back focusing and to a lesser degree the right AF point back focusing. The issue were also aperture dependant and also distance dependant, which to me rules out a hardware issue. Forget your theories on smaller apertures DOF covering up the issue, this is just nonsense. The fact is, if you shoot at f2.8 you can still clearly see where the mid point of focus was and therefore you would still see whether it is back focusing or not.

Now, the whole AF module is one unit as far as I know. The only way this could be out of alignment would be because it was bent or curved back at the extreme left and right sides and the left side being bent more than the right. However, this dosen't explain the variances of aperture and distant dependant back focusing. If it is out of calibration due to a mechanical misalignment, then it would manifest itself at all apertures and all distances and this is not the case.

It seems to me that the issue is closely related to focus shift that can occur in the wide aperture lenses. In my case, the AF issue only occurs very occssionally with my 85mm f1.4G and then this very occassional event only occurs at wide apertures, like under f2.8, and at distances, say, over 4mts. The issue only occurs so rarely, that I am not concerned about a fix and will only send my camera in for a fix if and when I am sure there is a correct fix. All my other lenses perform perfectly as many would have seen from my posted photos since I obtained the D800.

The problem is, as there have been such wide reporting on the problem, and many seem to have the issue, then a whole raft of issues then begin to be uncovered. Due to the reported issues I think people are now testing their AF to death and finding things that they wouldn't normally find and this is clouding the issue. I do believe that people are also finding back/front focusing with the centre focus points as well and this just muddies the left/right AF point issue compounding the issue and I think this is making many think that it is a mechanical issue.

The problem here is that if your centre points are back focusing due to mechanical misalignment with a particular lens then this can make testing for the left/right point AF issue a nightmare and just makes the whole thing a disaster waiting to happen as you have no concrete reference point to start with, "chasing your tail" for want of a better term.

However, if the left/right AF point issue wasn't there, then we would just do a normal AF Fine tune check for each lens and then that'd be it, we would have calibrated our lenses as you would on a D700 or D3 or whatever.

Sar NOP

05-07-2012, 10:33pm

Think of it as AF fine tune adjustment. All modern higher end cameras have it now, and a standardised firmware fix would be akin to claiming that all 85mm f/1.4 lenses require an AF fine tune of -10.

That is your camera, my camera, Mango's camera, Andrew's camera and even Lance's camera, who has no AF issues!! all require a AF fine tune of -10 for any 85/1.4 lens.

You're 100% right here.
I use my 85/1.4G at f/1.4 more than 90% of the time. With the D800, shooting wide open with this 85mm is less reliable than my other DX cameras. Last week, I decided to use for the very first time the AF fine tune in the D800 (I've never used it on my D7000). Set to -15, my 85/1.4G becomes now much more reliable (and accurate) at f/1.4 than before : at any AF mode (any AF points) and at any distance, the keeper rate is over 90% !

arthurking83

06-07-2012, 4:43am

Now that Mongo has sorted his issue and started another thread, we can deviate slightly from the original point of the thread:

A software fix actually makes sense when you think about it.

........

......

The problem here is that if your centre points are back focusing due to mechanical misalignment with a particular lens then this can make testing for the left/right point AF issue a nightmare and just makes the whole thing a disaster waiting to happen as you have no concrete reference point to start with, "chasing your tail" for want of a better term.

.....

Actually, what's interesting here is that of all the available devices in the Wide World of Nikon, the device that actually has the best possible chance of producing the best and most accurate AF calibration data, is right there in your hands!! The camera itself!
Contrary to Lance's comments, the camera does have an AF reference point to begin with, and that's the sensor itself.
(long live useless features and functions huh!) .. I am of course referring to LiveView, which when it first appeared was scorned by most as a useless feature.
I loved it from the word go, one of the best features available to the SLR type camera.

If any device is capable of providing a spot on AF calibration starting point, or reference point, it has to be the sensor itself.

If Nikon were actually smart about this issue, they'd have included an self diagnostic feature in the camera(hopefully for future generation cameras!) where the camera would be able to produce a range of AF tests when prompted by the user or owner or tech back in the service lab, whereby it uses a system of comparative images and data, for both AF module accuracy compared with the images and data produced by the sensor's direct AF ability.
This way any and all lens focusing anomalies would be committed to memory within the camera without any need for the user to do the tedious testing themselves and set the AF fine tune.

If the owner/user didn't have the means or know how on how to do it themselves, they'd take it into the shop, and the tech folks would set it up on the bench and the camera would do it's thing automatedly, making the service quick and easy. Turn around time would be massively reduced, to as much as zero, as the option would be there for the owner to do it themselves .. which leaves the servicing folks to concentrate on other actual broken devices.

My suspicions would be that Mongo would have had a much less stressful experience re all of this rigmarole of D800 misfocusing!

PROBLEM is tho, that Nikon would never do this, even tho in many ways it'd be in their best interest to do so with the nett result of higher levels of customer satisfaction.

Not too long ago, Nikon made a quite seriously stupid decision to force all workshops around the globe to update to specific Nikon standards, which required that all these workshops would have to invest substantial amounts of money into specialised equipment.
With this also came the prospect of low return on investment rates for this type of expenditure, which made for very few servicing centres that would take up the offer.

ie. Nikon were trying hard to put the independent service people of of work .. to corner the market for themselves basically.

So the prospect that Nikon would add self diagnostic features into their high end cameras is going to be pretty much a no go!
Makes it especially saddening when it should be a pretty simple matter of including a separate firmware code for it with minimal space requirement .. and the hardware and ability for adjustments already exists within the camera.

So if you want a lesson on how to alienate your most loyal customer base ..... then shoot yourself in the foot and end up with said foot in mouth, after which point you end up contracting foot and mouth disease and finally end up a a point where euthanasia is the best course of action ... follow Nikon's escapades!! :D

Speaking of customer satisfaction, apparently if you own a Pentax DSLR, you have the best, most trouble free camera brand ..... followed by Nikon, and closely thereafter by Canon(according to JD Powers sources).

Fortunately I've had an extremely great run from my Nikon equipment, as I suspect most will too.
Occasional gaffs happen in every facet of life, and DSLR's shouldn't be immune to them.
But if the manufacturers were smart enough to allow for such important errors, and other trivial matters, even diehards like myself .. pretty much a Nikon person all the way through .. but not blindly so, would more readily forgive them for it.
Send out a service report for it, set the camera up so that it could do it's own automated testing and correction, and away we go.
I'm not even affected by the issue, but I'm annoyed by it, as I was and am so close to getting the D800 myself. Last thing I want is a problematic camera to send somewhere to have it fixed, which requires time and effort!

Their recent marketing slogan, seems to say it all I think .... I am Nikon ... yeah right!! :rolleyes: meaningless garbage unless being a Nikon actually means something!
As it stands it only means one thing, Nikon are becoming complacent, and they seem to displaying a lot of arrogance and sterility towards the people that have made them what they are.
If their current strategy maintains this kind of momentum, I can't see a bright future for Nikon.

Lance B

06-07-2012, 11:31am

Now that Mongo has sorted his issue and started another thread, we can deviate slightly from the original point of the thread:

Actually, what's interesting here is that of all the available devices in the Wide World of Nikon, the device that actually has the best possible chance of producing the best and most accurate AF calibration data, is right there in your hands!! The camera itself!
Contrary to Lance's comments, the camera does have an AF reference point to begin with, and that's the sensor itself.
(long live useless features and functions huh!) .. I am of course referring to LiveView, which when it first appeared was scorned by most as a useless feature.
I loved it from the word go, one of the best features available to the SLR type camera.

If any device is capable of providing a spot on AF calibration starting point, or reference point, it has to be the sensor itself.

I agree that the sensor is the reference point, but I think you are being a little nefarious and argumentative for the sake of an argument, Arthur.

Realistically, and this was the point of what I asid, if you have a viewfinder left point and/or right point AF sensor that is back focusing, but the centre points are fine then your only reference point in the VF are those centre AF points in order to get the left AF (and possibly right AF) issues sorted. If your centre points are off due to the need to AF fine tune on a particular lens, then that needs to be sorted first making the central AF points the reference point to then get the left and right AF points sorted.

If Nikon were actually smart about this issue, they'd have included an self diagnostic feature in the camera(hopefully for future generation cameras!) where the camera would be able to produce a range of AF tests when prompted by the user or owner or tech back in the service lab, whereby it uses a system of comparative images and data, for both AF module accuracy compared with the images and data produced by the sensor's direct AF ability.
This way any and all lens focusing anomalies would be committed to memory within the camera without any need for the user to do the tedious testing themselves and set the AF fine tune.

There is an aftermarket fosu test set up that you can do yourself:
http://www.reikan.co.uk/focal/

I am sure that Nikon would have something similar or may even use an aftermarket set up. I know many of us think manufacturers are stupid, but I am sure if they can design a highly complex camera like a D800 or whatever, they have the know how to get focusing correct and much better than we think we can. However, this comes down to cost and how accurate you want it all to be. Everything comes at a cost and you can have the best most accurate focus for all points if you want to pay for it. This applies to all things and the rule is, everything made built down to a price, it's a fact of life and I think we just need to remember that.

What I think has happened with the D800 is that they do a central AF point calibration on the production line, but this is obviously not enough.

If the owner/user didn't have the means or know how on how to do it themselves, they'd take it into the shop, and the tech folks would set it up on the bench and the camera would do it's thing automatedly, making the service quick and easy. Turn around time would be massively reduced, to as much as zero, as the option would be there for the owner to do it themselves .. which leaves the servicing folks to concentrate on other actual broken devices.

My suspicions would be that Mongo would have had a much less stressful experience re all of this rigmarole of D800 misfocusing!

Firstly, they have to know that there is a problem and then they have to have a work around to fix the issue. This obviously takes time and in the mean time, the service centres around the world just have to wait and see. Japanese are always very tight lipped about what they do and nothing we can say will alter that.

The point is, none of these service centres know what is going on and they therefore try to fix it themselves thinking it is a hardware issue.

From what I have read on other forums, it seems that Nikon does have some sort of a jig made up for just this very problem, but it will take time for all service centres to get one. However, the idea that there is a jig and that each service cetre needs one is just rumour. It may be that they do not need a jig and can be calibrated without one, a la my original opening sentences about reference points.

PROBLEM is tho, that Nikon would never do this, even tho in many ways it'd be in their best interest to do so with the nett result of higher levels of customer satisfaction.

Not too long ago, Nikon made a quite seriously stupid decision to force all workshops around the globe to update to specific Nikon standards, which required that all these workshops would have to invest substantial amounts of money into specialised equipment.
With this also came the prospect of low return on investment rates for this type of expenditure, which made for very few servicing centres that would take up the offer.

ie. Nikon were trying hard to put the independent service people of of work .. to corner the market for themselves basically.

It's happening with absolutely everything, automotive, computers (think Apple), Woolwoths/Coles, now cameras and anything with it's own valuable brand name. It's all about tying up your money for life. What are you going to do, jump ship to Canon? Pentax? Olympus? They are all the same. However, some might not be as bad as others, but then do they have the features and back up that you require?

But realistically, I would have thought that making sure all service centres around the world had to be to Nikon standards was a good thing. Who is to say that the service centres as they are were better than Nikon anyway? Where did that idea come from? Being independent suddenly makes you better than Nikon? Wouldn't the speciallised equipment be a better thing in this age of highly complex and highly critical devices that we now use, and not only that the fact that customers are more demanding because their equipment can deliver those more highly critical results. Think of the D800 with it's high resolution now making every lens requiring perfect focus as we can now see any small off focus misses.

So the prospect that Nikon would add self diagnostic features into their high end cameras is going to be pretty much a no go!
Makes it especially saddening when it should be a pretty simple matter of including a separate firmware code for it with minimal space requirement .. and the hardware and ability for adjustments already exists within the camera.

I am sure that this could be done, but at what cost and this is the crux of the matter. All these things are fine, but it costs money.

So if you want a lesson on how to alienate your most loyal customer base ..... then shoot yourself in the foot and end up with said foot in mouth, after which point you end up contracting foot and mouth disease and finally end up a a point where euthanasia is the best course of action ... follow Nikon's escapades!! :D

Speaking of customer satisfaction, apparently if you own a Pentax DSLR, you have the best, most trouble free camera brand ..... followed by Nikon, and closely thereafter by Canon(according to JD Powers sources).

Fortunately I've had an extremely great run from my Nikon equipment, as I suspect most will too.

As have I. Interestingly, my Pentax cameras and lenses were the worst! The thing is, most Pentax owners are not pros and not always enthusiasts, so most wouldn't even see the issue of the D800 as most probably wouldn't use anything other than the centre focus point. Pro's are waaay more demanding on their equipment and results than nay Pentax user, so any minute issue will be reflected in those "surveys". This is basically what happened to me, the more I got into photography, the more critical I became of my results and the more I found that the accuracy and QC of my Pentax gear just wasn't quite up to par. I jumped ship to Nikon pro gear and haven't looked back.

Occasional gaffs happen in every facet of life, and DSLR's shouldn't be immune to them.
But if the manufacturers were smart enough to allow for such important errors, and other trivial matters, even diehards like myself .. pretty much a Nikon person all the way through .. but not blindly so, would more readily forgive them for it.
Send out a service report for it, set the camera up so that it could do it's own automated testing and correction, and away we go.
I'm not even affected by the issue, but I'm annoyed by it, as I was and am so close to getting the D800 myself. Last thing I want is a problematic camera to send somewhere to have it fixed, which requires time and effort!

Their recent marketing slogan, seems to say it all I think .... I am Nikon ... yeah right!! :rolleyes: meaningless garbage unless being a Nikon actually means something!
As it stands it only means one thing, Nikon are becoming complacent, and they seem to displaying a lot of arrogance and sterility towards the people that have made them what they are.
If their current strategy maintains this kind of momentum, I can't see a bright future for Nikon.

LOL. I think you are a little sensitive. I mean, all manufacturers have these sorts of slogans and they are all just as meaningless. You're an intelligent person, why would you even give their slogan a second thought, let alone believe any part of it? These slogans are just there for the masses and to get their names in everyone's minds.

arthurking83

06-07-2012, 1:24pm

I agree that the sensor is the reference point, but I think you are being a little nefarious and argumentative for the sake of an argument, Arthur.

......

apologies if it came across that way, but it wasn't meant to be.

My reply was purely speculative on what could be achieved if someone put their mind to it.

Each AF point still corresponds to a point on the sensor that could be used for phase detect AF point calibration for the module at any time(either by the user or a tech).
That is, when you select a particular AF point and then switch to Lv mode, the af are in Lv mode corresponds to the chosen af point through the viewfinder.
Using this system would allow the camera to diagnose any errors in phase detect AF through the viewfinder.

So, imagine a situation where your camera receives a serious enough knock that pushes vAF(viewfinder AF) out of whack by just enough to warrant it to be an issue, but not enough so that it's worth the hassle of heading to a service dept.
In general, most folks would simply fool around with AF fine tune and get acceptable results.

Perfect AF at the sensor level, which is usually achieve with great accuracy via LvAF(Liveview AF) is all that's important at this point.
If the AF system can still recognise a perfect AF level, via the LvAF, then I can't imagine it being too hard(for a seasoned programmer) to add a routine that systematically checks vfAF points against a set good reference point.
External calibration devices would become redundant, and all it requires is a memory module that could be separate to any other memory on the camera if need be.... apart from the code to execute the routine of course.
If it were smart enough, this calibration checking diagnostic could have enough memory to then fine tune AF for a large selection of zoom lenses as well for those of us with zoom lenses that need varying degrees of AF calibration for various focal lengths!

of course this will add a small cost increase to the camera, but a system such as this, as it's already partially implemented in the form of AF fine tune, would be minimal in terms of a per unit measurement.
More storage capacity is also inevitable for future cameras, so I doubt that any increase in hardware resources will add much to cost either.

My belief now is that most af checking charts and programs and software are made redundant with the advent of Liveview.
in fact it's very rare for me to even take a shot whilst I'm AF checking on most lenses, as it's a simple matter of focusing via the vf, and then switching to manual focus so as to not disturb the focus point set.. and then switch on liveview to check 'sharpness' on the review screen.
With focus mode now set to manual, I then use focus peaking to see if any more sharpness can be had with very fine movements of the focus collar on the lens.
Easy peasy and done in a jiffy.
I really only take a few sample shots later on to confirm that I'd set it right, or not.
Have never felt the need to use any AF calibration assistance products, other than in the old days when Lv wasn't an option.

The other uber cool advantage of having an on board self diagnostic system for AF, would be the finer granularity of using af fine tune at varying focused distances, and apertures as well.

Most, if not all very fast lenses suffer from focus shift, and the ability to embed all this extra data using more complex data capture would allow for amazingly tight tolerances when it comes to AF.

As you already said Lance, considering the need for spot on AF on a high res camera such as a D800(for those of us who choose to AF), I reckon something like this has to eventually feature on some future camera down the road.

Otherwise(as an alternative), I'd like to see cameras using a more smart OS, with the ability to load external apps and features into them at some point in the future.
I think this is going to be another inevitable consequence of modern day device usage.

Horrid, pitiful, currently pretty much dumb firmwares will hopefully become a thing of the past, and I just hope that Nikon latches onto the idea sooner rather than later.

Imagine that!
This is about as ideal as ideal could possibly get .... if it ever eventuates!
Super duper feature rich applications that help deal with issues, and problems of either a software or hardware nature.
The ideal perfect camera for just about anyone, where someone like me gets all the bells and whistles, and yet William who wants a completely stripped down featureless camera also gets what he wants in the same camera package!!
I want video, he doesn't .. I keep the video app, he deletes it! .. easy as you can get, and the tools to make it happen exist already.

It's a matter of how much does this impact on the manufacturers ability to sell accessories, where the problem lies.
If all features can be enabled via a camera menu, rather than using the good ol hardware accessory method(eg stuff like remotes, and intervalometers and so on) .. then it leaves the camera makers short on income streams from some of their other avenues.

But they could sell their own apps based on some proprietary software code, that amounts to a similar sort of system where we as the user purchase these apps as we feel the need too.

.. anyhow, too much rambling about stuff that aint going to happen in Nikon World(but quite possibly in Samsung World! :confused:) ...

I think in the coming months we may start to see more app orientated compacts, to cater for a market that may be getting hammered by the iCamera .. iPhone set.(by all reports).

I'm sure(I read) that Polaroid are using an app based OS on one of their impending, or current new cameras, and Samsung have introduced a new compact with similar operating style too now. So we may have to wait a while longer and see what happens.

Lance B

06-07-2012, 2:41pm

apologies if it came across that way, but it wasn't meant to be.

No problems, I may have overracted a little. :)

My reply was purely speculative on what could be achieved if someone put their mind to it.

Each AF point still corresponds to a point on the sensor that could be used for phase detect AF point calibration for the module at any time(either by the user or a tech).
That is, when you select a particular AF point and then switch to Lv mode, the af are in Lv mode corresponds to the chosen af point through the viewfinder.
Using this system would allow the camera to diagnose any errors in phase detect AF through the viewfinder.

So, imagine a situation where your camera receives a serious enough knock that pushes vAF(viewfinder AF) out of whack by just enough to warrant it to be an issue, but not enough so that it's worth the hassle of heading to a service dept.
In general, most folks would simply fool around with AF fine tune and get acceptable results.

Perfect AF at the sensor level, which is usually achieve with great accuracy via LvAF(Liveview AF) is all that's important at this point.
If the AF system can still recognise a perfect AF level, via the LvAF, then I can't imagine it being too hard(for a seasoned programmer) to add a routine that systematically checks vfAF points against a set good reference point.
External calibration devices would become redundant, and all it requires is a memory module that could be separate to any other memory on the camera if need be.... apart from the code to execute the routine of course.
If it were smart enough, this calibration checking diagnostic could have enough memory to then fine tune AF for a large selection of zoom lenses as well for those of us with zoom lenses that need varying degrees of AF calibration for various focal lengths!

of course this will add a small cost increase to the camera, but a system such as this, as it's already partially implemented in the form of AF fine tune, would be minimal in terms of a per unit measurement.
More storage capacity is also inevitable for future cameras, so I doubt that any increase in hardware resources will add much to cost either.

My belief now is that most af checking charts and programs and software are made redundant with the advent of Liveview.
in fact it's very rare for me to even take a shot whilst I'm AF checking on most lenses, as it's a simple matter of focusing via the vf, and then switching to manual focus so as to not disturb the focus point set.. and then switch on liveview to check 'sharpness' on the review screen.
With focus mode now set to manual, I then use focus peaking to see if any more sharpness can be had with very fine movements of the focus collar on the lens.
Easy peasy and done in a jiffy.
I really only take a few sample shots later on to confirm that I'd set it right, or not.
Have never felt the need to use any AF calibration assistance products, other than in the old days when Lv wasn't an option.

The other uber cool advantage of having an on board self diagnostic system for AF, would be the finer granularity of using af fine tune at varying focused distances, and apertures as well.

I am sure that we will see something like this in cameras one day, especially the pro spec versions. If one camera company does it, then the other will have to follow, as long as they can make it idiot proof for the user otherwise they service centres will have more cameras to recalibrate!

Most, if not all very fast lenses suffer from focus shift, and the ability to embed all this extra data using more complex data capture would allow for amazingly tight tolerances when it comes to AF.

As you already said Lance, considering the need for spot on AF on a high res camera such as a D800(for those of us who choose to AF), I reckon something like this has to eventually feature on some future camera down the road.

Otherwise(as an alternative), I'd like to see cameras using a more smart OS, with the ability to load external apps and features into them at some point in the future.
I think this is going to be another inevitable consequence of modern day device usage.

Even focus shift should/could be part of the program and firmware that would automatically adjust the lens when using different apertures and distances.

Horrid, pitiful, currently pretty much dumb firmwares will hopefully become a thing of the past, and I just hope that Nikon latches onto the idea sooner rather than later.

Imagine that!
This is about as ideal as ideal could possibly get .... if it ever eventuates!
Super duper feature rich applications that help deal with issues, and problems of either a software or hardware nature.
The ideal perfect camera for just about anyone, where someone like me gets all the bells and whistles, and yet William who wants a completely stripped down featureless camera also gets what he wants in the same camera package!!
I want video, he doesn't .. I keep the video app, he deletes it! .. easy as you can get, and the tools to make it happen exist already.

It's a matter of how much does this impact on the manufacturers ability to sell accessories, where the problem lies.
If all features can be enabled via a camera menu, rather than using the good ol hardware accessory method(eg stuff like remotes, and intervalometers and so on) .. then it leaves the camera makers short on income streams from some of their other avenues.

But they could sell their own apps based on some proprietary software code, that amounts to a similar sort of system where we as the user purchase these apps as we feel the need too.

.. anyhow, too much rambling about stuff that aint going to happen in Nikon World(but quite possibly in Samsung World! :confused:) ...

I think in the coming months we may start to see more app orientated compacts, to cater for a market that may be getting hammered by the iCamera .. iPhone set.(by all reports).

I'm sure(I read) that Polaroid are using an app based OS on one of their impending, or current new cameras, and Samsung have introduced a new compact with similar operating style too now. So we may have to wait a while longer and see what happens.

You could very well be correct. There are almost no limits, other than imagination, as to what can be applied and used.

Wayne

08-07-2012, 11:29pm

mongo

09-07-2012, 10:55am

Today I had a chance to do some testing with my 200/2VR on the D800.

I found that straight up as suspected, it is back focusing. I was able to obtain easily repeatable results. I ended up at -20 on the AF Micro Adjustment, which is max. I'm not happy with it needing this much adjustment. I will test on the D3s tomorrow. The lighting you see is different due to using a torch to light the target. Both shot wide open @ f/2 using centre focus point, which is recommended for the Lens Align system. The first clearly shows back focusing issue, and the second is corrected in AF Fine Tune to -20.

I will test the outer AF points, once I'm happy with the centre.

an excellent test well demonstrated Wayne. You did get good results with the AR fine tune but Mongo agrees with you, that it is a little concerning that you are at "Max" adjustment to achieve that. There is basically no more leeway to play with had you needed it or should you need it with this lens in the future.

Mongo assumes that you have done this test (as opposed to other tests we have been talking about) because you have determined that you have no left or right AF point focus issues as Mongo had (or still has ?) ? BTW, Mongo has answered your question about Mongo's camera in Mongo's Wren post

Wayne

09-07-2012, 12:22pm

Mongo,

I haven't tested other focus points other than centre at this stage as i just noticed the lens seemed to be back focusing and I ran out of time yesterday to test others. I do intend to test the left/right ones, but won't be for another week at least as I am back to work from tomorrow. I am suspecting that with such a small DOF per the 200/2, it will show any faults easily, and that will mean a trip to Nikon for the body. In any case even if the extreme points are ok, I will probably send the D800 to nikon for adjustment, given it is already on -20 and only bordering on acceptable at that.
The lens is spot on with the D3s, zero AF adjustment needed, so it is not the lens, and I expect a body at this level to be better calibrated so although it 'works' with this lens, I'm still not happy with it.

Lance B

09-07-2012, 4:05pm

You say you used a torch to light the target? I think I would try with natural light and see what results you get.

I would also suggest you look at Reikan Focus test software:
http://www.reikan.co.uk/focal/

Wayne

09-07-2012, 9:36pm

Lance, I actually ran out of daylight at the end of my testing, I was able to produce the consistent back focus under bright sun earlier in the afternoon. I just used the torch as light was fading.

Here is a 100% crop from this afternoon, straight out of the camera, simply cropped and sized for upload. Sam was the only subject I could find and he likes the camera ;)

D800 + 200/2 VR Centre focus point
1/250 f/2.2 ISO200

Lance B

09-07-2012, 10:20pm

Focus looks good.

Sifor

10-07-2012, 11:20am

Done some more static tests with my D800 and 24-70 2.8 @ 24mm 2.8:

Right:
http://u.filepak.com/6OGv_DSC_1763R.jpg

Centre:
http://u.filepak.com/HBF2_DSC_1764C.jpg

Left:
http://u.filepak.com/c7qQ_DSC_1765L.jpg

Right point is slightly out, centre sharp, left is definitely out.

Looks like I might have to send the body off to Nikon.. I guess I couldn't rule out the lens being at issue though?

arthurking83

10-07-2012, 4:42pm

......

D800 + 200/2 VR Centre focus point
1/250 f/2.2 ISO200

Focus looks good.

If the image of the cat is the one discussed here, and the image is cropped the way that the image was cropped is going to make a difference in assessing how good focus was.
I suppose when the person says is a 100% crop, does this mean a 100% pixel size and then cropped or is the image 100% of the actual frame?
If the image was cropped whilst in 100% zoomed view, was the crop made around the central focus point?

As the image is displayed, it looks as tho the centre point focus is on the cat's fur under the ear, whereas the sharpest point is on the cat's eye and inner ear.

Sar NOP

10-07-2012, 7:54pm

I understand what Arthur is trying to explain here.
It's always better to show the original frame with the focus point (a capture of the screen for example) and a pixel-size crop of the original file around that focusing zone.

Edit : Mentioning the AF mode is very important as well.

Wayne

10-07-2012, 8:13pm

If the image of the cat is the one discussed here, and the image is cropped the way that the image was cropped is going to make a difference in assessing how good focus was.
I suppose when the person says is a 100% crop, does this mean a 100% pixel size and then cropped or is the image 100% of the actual frame?
If the image was cropped whilst in 100% zoomed view, was the crop made around the central focus point?

As the image is displayed, it looks as tho the centre point focus is on the cat's fur under the ear, whereas the sharpest point is on the cat's eye and inner ear.

You make a good point Arthur,
To clarify, when I say 100% crop, the image was shown on screen at pixel level, and a crop was taken of the area around the focus point. In this case, the focus point was on the cat's eye, which you have said appears to be the point of focus, so it shows the -20 adjustment has all but corrected the back focus issue.

mongo

10-07-2012, 10:43pm

Done some more static tests with my D800 and 24-70 2.8 @ 24mm 2.8: ......Right point is slightly out, centre sharp, left is definitely out.

This is exactly the pattern of behaviour Mongo has found ie. the middle Ok-ish the right side a little out and the left , way out. Also, it is a very good idea to eliminate the lens having a problem by doing the same test with that lens on another camera body you trust to be right.

Sifor

11-07-2012, 12:05am

I'd like to test the lens on another body, however my only other Nikon is a F-501.. however I did confirm my results by focusing via live view - all three areas are pretty much consistent, which would suggest the lens is okay.

The Brisbane Nikon service centre (Anderson Camera Repairs) said they have the ability to fix the focus issue, however I'm still weighing up the possibility that letting them touch it might cause more problems, rather than fixing it. In "real world" use I haven't missed focus yet, so I guess unless I have an issue using the camera it might be best to leave it be.. undecided. Anyway, I'll be in Sydney at the end of the year, so I might let Nikon themselves fiddle with it rather than have a third party subcontractor 'fix' it.

I hope your D800 is working better now Mongo.

arthurking83

11-07-2012, 4:48pm

.....

The Brisbane Nikon service centre (Anderson Camera Repairs) said they have the ability to fix the focus issue, however I'm still weighing up the possibility that letting them touch it might cause more problems, rather than fixing it. .....

There's always the chance of this happening, but my thoughts are that this would be extremely unlikely.

If there is any anomalous operation of the camera, no matter how insignificant it may seem now, I'd say it's best to get it recitified.

Wayne

11-07-2012, 8:39pm

I agree with Arthur, if it is broke it should be fixed. I too wouldn't hand mine to a 3rd party contractor. In fact I spoke to Nikon Sydney today, and they will cover mine even though it is grey market from SG. I was surprised they didn't try to make me send it back, but they know how much and what type of Nikon gear I have so it may have helped my case.

Sifor

12-07-2012, 3:04pm

Haven't been very successful talking to Nikon Australia on the phone... terrible phone line and the operators seem to have a hard time understanding me (and I can't really understand them)... apparently they are going to email me so I can forward them my test shots...yet to receive this email.

The little information that I managed to get out of Nikon Australia was that the focus problem is not recognised by Nikon as being a widespread/global flaw and as a consequence they do not have a single/bulk solution to fix it. They are treating it on a case by case basis and said the information contained on forums and non-nikon websites should be taken at "face value". Once I email them my test shots they will work out a solution..

My intention in calling Nikon Australia was to determine the best procedure to rectify my D800's focus issue - ie either take it to them in Sydney (will be in Syd at end of year) or go to the authorised service centre in Brisbane. I was at first a little concerned about taking my D800 to the third party contractor in Brisbane to fix, however after my telephone experience with Nikon Aus, I'm starting to feel that might be the best option! In any case, the service centre in Brisbane has said that I can wait while they fix it since I live on the Gold Coast and it'll be a 2 hour return trip. Was also told to bring my Nikon 24-70 2.8 lens (I assume to rule out the lens being at fault and perhaps to calibrate it to the body).

Will see where the email from Nikon Australia takes me, if not I'll just take it to the service centre in Brisbane and hope for the best.. hopefully they don't have to strip the camera to get to the part.. complex repairs always concerns me.. wouldn't want it more "broken" than it currently is!

arthurking83

12-07-2012, 9:27pm

......

Mongo has done some preliminary test With this D800 since getting it back yesterday. He can not post all of the test charts but has put these up for your comments. Needless to say, Mongo is still very unimpressed and unhappy. What do you think of the post fix images.

...... Still no change so its not the lens. It is the same as before i.e very bad on the left, OK in centre, not really good on right

......

...... I was at first a little concerned about taking my D800 to the third party contractor in Brisbane to fix, .....

Going from how I've read Mongo's thread, I can't see why this would be a concern. :confused013

To be honest, I'd say that taking back to Nikon in Sydney would be more of a waste of time, as it may have been for Mongo to begin with.
(that is if Mongo took the D800 to nikon HQ in Sydney, which is how I'm reading it.

Nup! I'd be much more inclined to trust the Authorised third party service centre, more than Nikon themselves going from some of the information already provided on Nikon's (lack of) enthusiasm for admitting this is a problem.
I'd expect that the service centre wou;d take more care or pride in trying to provide the best possible level of service to the customer ... mainly for two obvious(to me) reasons.
1. impress a prospective customer
2. I'm assuming that they charge Nikon for providing this service. If they were on a performance based system, where customer satisfaction in dealing with issues is used as a measure of performance, then it'd be in their interest to see you off Happier than Larry!!

I'd expect Nikon HQ employees or service techs are probably not interested in results, other than what the Nikon specs say are 'within tolerance'.
They just get theri pay cheques at the end of the week and want to go to the pub at the end of every week.
As long as the camera is 'within specs' their job is deemed to have been completed .. irrespective of the fact that YOU are satisfied. They only need to satisfy themselves that they did the right thing.

NUP! ..... I'd be more inclined to trust a third party service provider, than the robots at a service HQ.