Carbon fibre warning

[wilko61]

Hi All, I was reading this blob (http://www.joerainbowphotography.com/page5.htm#83968)(hope this post works!) and thought it way interest people with Carbon Fibre Tripods. Strange, I haven't heard similar experiences causing failure in push-bikes or other carbon-fibre components.

I still have a metal tripod :(

Cheers

Wilko

[jjphoto]

Interesting. I didn't know getting them wet was an issue but maybe that's just a Manfrotto problem, as it may depend on the exact manufacturing process, resins, materials etc used.

I don't think I would ever buy a CF tripod, except with some one elses money.

JJ

[William]

:DMy $45 Tripod gets in the Salt water every day , Most times I dont bother to even wash it down , Mind you the bottom segments are seized up now after 5yrs but thats because I never really extended them from the beginning I guess , Think I'll stay with aluminiun after reading that , I thought CF would be better as well :confused013

[Steve Axford]

I think you need to view this as a specific problem with that tripod rather than a generic problem with carbon fibre. I have a gitzo cf tripod and it goes into salt water with no problem. I would expect a metal tripod to perform much worse as it would be subject to corrosion.

[old dog]

ooow, I don`t like the sound of that. Must keep tripod dry...must keep tripod dry.....

[knumbnutz]

Carbon fibre can handle a lot of things, but generally it doesnt like boiling water of all things. Also cheap carbon fibre isnt UV stabilized and will eventually perish after being in the sun a lot.

[Steve Axford]

Carbon fibre can handle a lot of things, but generally it doesnt like boiling water of all things. Also cheap carbon fibre isnt UV stabilized and will eventually perish after being in the sun a lot.

Carbon fibre is a composite material, like fiberglass. It can handle boiling water without a problem, provided it is good quality. It can even be used for turbine blades, if it is composited with metal. Carbon fibre is a superb material if it is well made. It can be lousy if poorly made - just like most things.

[George Edwards]

I'm a fly fisherman, and have been using quality carbon fibre components built in a similar manner to tripods (jointed tubular carbon/epoxy sections) in ocean and brackish water for many years. Good quality carbon fibre is an EXCELLENT material for use in salt water. If it breaks from even very frequent use, you have a bad product. The rods I use are built to very specific tolerances and have been wet hundreds of times in salt water. If they expanded more than about 0.1mm their joints would have seized and broken, and this has never happened.
So it's just that tripod. Carbon fibre is fine, and a good one should last years in salt water and sun without a problem (Except that it changes colour in sun, but well made should still retail all of its original strength).

I have also owned lousy ones, made very cheaply, that have suffered various fates- but never salt water damage. If they went to basic precautions when building the things they could avoid all of this.

[ricktas]

The new Boeing 787 (Dreamliner) is made from Carbon Fibre.

Carbon fibre does tend to crack in a line. I have busted two carbon fibre bike frames. But I think this article is not telling us the whole story. Reading between the lines, I would suggest he throws his gear around a bit.

[George Edwards]

On the other hand, aluminium that is not anodised can be damaged by high concentration salt water (Sea water will sometimes be enough), despite it's resistance to normal corrosion. Beware of long exposure of aluminium to salt water! You're better off with CF than aluminium in salt, though if you wash them well each time, you'll have no problem with Al.

[Ezookiel]

Well, my Manfrotto isn't CF, and after lugging it around Floriade, and up and down Mtns, and standing it in several rivers, I'd happily swap to a CF one any day. A 5km walk isn't much fun without a tripod, it definitely isn't much fun with a big heavy one. Of course, that heaviness helped heaps on a windy night taking some city light shots in gusty winds. I guess my only solution is to win the lotto and then have both tripods and pick and choose depending on whether I'm walking with it, or wanting stability.
I'd be pretty disappointed to have it split like that. Surprisingly he may well be killing it with kindness. It sounds to me like it's not just copping the usual water and abuse, but then also warm water showers as well. Perhaps a little less TLC? Who knows. I guess I'll note the model number NOT to buy when I do go to a CF one.

[jjphoto]

..., I'd happily swap to a CF one any day. A 5km walk isn't much fun without a tripod, it definitely isn't much fun with a big heavy one. Of course, that heaviness helped heaps on a windy night taking some city light shots in gusty winds. I guess my only solution is to win the lotto and then have both tripods and pick and choose depending on whether I'm walking with it, or wanting stability.
....

Sure, for hiking weight is a big deal, but the times I've compared like for like CF and Aluminium tripdos the weight difference has been quite minor as much of the weight is in the fittings, joints, head etc.

Try hiking with this...

http://photocornucopia.com/images/Automotive/l_242_pc_400.jpg

[arthurking83]

So when carbon fibre gets wet it 'expands'!!! :rolleyes:

How do those F1 cars fly around race tracks at 300km/h in the wet!! :p

More likely, just a typical Manfrotto design issue.

I never liked their clamp system of tightening legs, and if it was the lowest leg on a 190 series that caused this blobber's tripod to fail, then I'd dare say it was a combination of the small diameter tubing of the tripod leg added to the Manfrotto leg clamp system, as well as a small amount of external force on the leg that did it.

if the issue is related to any expansion effect of cf in water, then all legs would be affected in some way.

First I've ever heard of this type of problem, and my Gitzo used to live in all types of waters for longer than I care to admit.

I used to clean mine up quite regularly mainly after submersion in dirty waters, such as sea or muddy, and the only issue I've had in the 5years I've had mine for, is a broken bushing sleeve due to my own fault when disassembling the tripod for a more thorough clean.

I suppose a question that could be raised is .. what is the quality level of the carbon fibre used for tripod legs?



..... Of course, that heaviness helped heaps on a windy night taking some city light shots in gusty winds. I guess my only solution is to win the lotto and then have both tripods and pick and choose depending on whether I'm walking with it, or wanting stability.....

I've never had any issues having a lighter weight cf tripod and strong winds!
More of an issue in such strong winds is camera shake due to the excessive gale. Trying to get a single sharp shot is hard enough, even with a carbon tripod and quite sturdy head.

For more security in such conditions, use your camera bag with whatever remains inside it and hang it from the hook.
This is actually safer than a heavy tripod, because the chances are that this heavier(metal) tripod is going to be top heavy anyhow.
The larger tubed legs are almost always at the top of the tripod, and also the head and camera .. etc, etc ... so having a top heavy tripod and camera setup is less desirable.
Hanging the camera bag from the underside of the tripod, lowers the Centre Of Gravity, making it more stable in high winds.

[Ezookiel]

I did that with the bag, but ended up having to stretch out the strap on the bag till it got almost to the ground, as the wind just made the bag sway, and was likely to cause more movement in the camera than the wind was. But thanks for the details on your Gitzo, looks like that's a brand to aim for when/if I do upgrade to CF.
And jjphoto, no thanks, I'm happy to not hike with that lot, but if you use it to shoot cars, then there's a good chance you could get it all there in one of them ;)
I do wonder about the step ladder though. I've actually thought at times of whether carrying one of those could just give you that small edge over the other million photos at some places, such as Floriade, where everyone else's photos are from ground level, but a person with a step ladder could climb up just that bit higher and get the whole "picture" that the flowers are made into, or when taking that shot of the woolshed that's been done a thousand times, you could get up just that bit higher to get the fence in as foreground interest without it actually blocking the view of the woolshed the way it would for a ground based shot, etc etc etc. There are probably thousands of times it could make all the difference, in your case above, the extra height would make a huge difference with car photography.
Now who makes a CF step ladder light enough to take bushwalking for those landscape shots of old bushman's shacks etc?

[davidd]

The carbon fiber is actually encased and bonded together in a resin (usually epoxy), so I suppose the question is what is the quality of the resin? Some resins may be more porous than others.

[knumbnutz]

Cars, planes, bikes, fishing rods etc have a lot exterior resin. It adds weight although minor, but sliding surfaces and those like tripod legs where tolerances are tighter have very little resin.
My quote earlier in regards to boiling water is quoted from a friend of mine who used to work at Lola making F1 and Indy cars and he also said that it also depends how the carbon fibre is made. There is 2 ways, wet and dry and it makes a big difference to the end quality.


The carbon fiber is actually encased and bonded together in a resin (usually epoxy), so I suppose the question is what is the quality of the resin? Some resins may be more porous than others.

[Wayne]

I have dipped my Gitzo plenty of times, my Benro the same and no sign of any issues.

[rellik666]

Never really thought about it although I suppose I should have. CF or any epoxy based composite is a funny material and has to be manufactured to not only tight tolerances but in almost pharmaceutical standard clean rooms.

If you have been inside Boeing here in Melbourne you would see what goes into the layup stage of the process. Fibers have lifespans and must be used before a certain date. This is important in an aircraft.

My final year project at Uni was a study into water in epoxy based composites and found that the "strength" of the composite actually increases slightly with water but then fails very quickly. Also the temperature of the water is important and warmer water is worse. Anyhow, these were structural tests with the pieces sitting in water for days, weeks and months, not the occasional splash and then tested to aircraft loads and beyond.

Overtightening of composite materials is a real problem especially in a circular structure. It is a major problem on bikes where the seat post inserts into the frame.

Anyhow.....when using a CF tripod just be careful not to overtighten it. I wouldn't overly worry about the water getting it, unless it is under a lot of stress. Hopefully most CF tripods would be finished in a way to stop water getting into the epoxy. Oh and if you do put it in water, make sure you don't freeze it afterwards.....or you will damage the structure! :)

[gerry]

The new Boeing 787 (Dreamliner) is made from Carbon Fibre.

Carbon fibre does tend to crack in a line. I have busted two carbon fibre bike frames. But I think this article is not telling us the whole story. Reading between the lines, I would suggest he throws his gear around a bit.

can't compare the two and i agree there is more to this than what meets the eye, possible not abuse though..


On the other hand, aluminium that is not anodised can be damaged by high concentration salt water (Sea water will sometimes be enough), despite it's resistance to normal corrosion. Beware of long exposure of aluminium to salt water! You're better off with CF than aluminium in salt, though if you wash them well each time, you'll have no problem with Al.

aluminum that is protected by any means, anodise, alodine, paint is worthless when it gets chipped or scratched thus allowing the corrosion a place to start. That said, i refurbed by tripod and alodined and painted the fittings (these are the most corrosion susceptible items) and it has taken many dunks in seawater some without rinsing and ther eis not any sign of corrosion on teh fittings yet.


So when carbon fibre gets wet it 'expands'!!! :rolleyes:


lol, yeah thats a good comment, it might be close to teh truth when teh fibres are penetrated and moisture/water is allowed to 'wick' down the threads, this would cause some expansion, but not enough to cause a crack i would have thought...






Overtightening of composite materials is a real problem especially in a circular structure. It is a major problem on bikes where the seat post inserts into the frame.

Anyhow.....when using a CF tripod just be careful not to overtighten it. I wouldn't overly worry about the water getting it, unless it is under a lot of stress. Hopefully most CF tripods would be finished in a way to stop water getting into the epoxy. Oh and if you do put it in water, make sure you don't freeze it afterwards.....or you will damage the structure! :)

i reckon your on the money, overtightening is a sure way to get a lengthwise crack. Looking at the fittings, which are pretty much teh same as the other 190 series fittings with a toggle tightener and a bolt and nut - it would be pretty easy to over tighten either the 'T' bolt and nut or the other bolt and nut hence making it very tight when locking teh legs...

190CX parts here http://mediacdn.shopatron.com/media/mfg/2747/media_document/live_2/190CXPRO4_20120110.pdf?1328225952

[arthurking83]

.....

Anyhow.....when using a CF tripod just be careful not to over tighten it. I wouldn't overly worry about the water getting it, unless it is under a lot of stress. Hopefully most CF tripods would be finished in a way to stop water getting into the epoxy. Oh and if you do put it in water, make sure you don't freeze it afterwards.....or you will damage the structure! :)

Thanks for the info Roo.

So almost certainly water will get inside a tripod leg tube if submersed for an extended time(as you would as a landscaper), but I'm assuming that water damage to cf is a problem if the water was present for a prolonged period, rather than occasionally and then dried out.

That is, it would be ok if soaked for a very short while and then drained, but if the cf was exposed to water continuously, ie. soaked, over a period of time, that's when the cf starts to fail.

Also, if the tripod leg did in fact allow water into the tube, the water would(could) remain in the tube if not drained, but the water would remain at the bottom of the tube, not near the clamp so high up.
If water filled the inside of the tube up to the level of the clamp, then it'd be quite obvious to any user!!

One thing I remember is that water is quite a powerful solvent too .. but only really over a prolonged period of contact/saturation.

How do fibreglass marine vehicles .. boats!! grapple with the problem?

[rellik666]

Couldn't comment on boats, although a valid question, but it is all to do with the make up of the composite product, i.e the number of fibers to resin as to its strength and how the water affects it.

But it is also the surface treatment, if you lay water on a finished surface it is unlikely to do any damage to the structure, however leave water on a cracked or unfinished end and due to osmosis you will find water making its way around the structure.

(it has been a few years since I was at uni, I have to admit!)

The thing with CF is that it is designed to use, i.e the lay up process is very specific to the end product, so the process for a boat will be different to a plane wing or tripod leg. Also my understanding is that it is mainly Glass reinforced plastic rather than the more expensive and harder to manufacture CFRP (Carbon based composite).

After a bit of digging apparently blistering of the GRP in boats is also a problem! So there you go....something new everyday. However as boats are made of a lot more layers than your average tripod I don't think it would be a problem!

[George Edwards]

For boats, it depends on the resin used. Many fibreglass and carbon fibre components are fine if designed for use in water. Those with resin that is too porous or has been machined at one end (ie, tripod) will not protect against water.

About the aluminium, in humidity or fresh water, even scratched and chipped aluminium is fine. Salt water and dissimilar metals (eg, brass or steel screws in aluminium legs) cause the excessive corrosion, but only with prolonged contact. Rinsing soon after with fresh water should be fine, and purely aluminium and plastic/resin with no dissimilar metals is even better.

[Lance B]

Manfrotto carbon fibre tripods and monopods come with a plastic "spanner", that is clipped to one leg, specifically for tightening/loosening the screws that hold the clip fasteners onto the legs. I would suggest that they have that there for a reason, possibly due to the clips loosening or tightening, and you should periodically adjust them to suit. I think that the "cracked CF tripod phenomenon" in the link is not so comment, but caution and periodic maintenance should be carried out. I would suggest that you may need to take the tripod apart from time to time, using the supplied "tool", especially after water immersion, and give it a clean and dry. This would be a good idea regardless of water immersion as sand and grit etc can get into the legs and ruin the smooth function of the legs.

- - - Updated - - -


Thanks for the info Roo.

So almost certainly water will get inside a tripod leg tube if submersed for an extended time(as you would as a landscaper), but I'm assuming that water damage to cf is a problem if the water was present for a prolonged period, rather than occasionally and then dried out.

That is, it would be ok if soaked for a very short while and then drained, but if the cf was exposed to water continuously, ie. soaked, over a period of time, that's when the cf starts to fail.

Also, if the tripod leg did in fact allow water into the tube, the water would(could) remain in the tube if not drained, but the water would remain at the bottom of the tube, not near the clamp so high up.
If water filled the inside of the tube up to the level of the clamp, then it'd be quite obvious to any user!!

One thing I remember is that water is quite a powerful solvent too .. but only really over a prolonged period of contact/saturation.

How do fibreglass marine vehicles .. boats!! grapple with the problem?

They have a gel coat covering the fibreglass.

[Art Vandelay]

How do fibreglass marine vehicles .. boats!! grapple with the problem?

It isn't a problem.

Whilst I don't have a carbon fibre boat ($$$$$) there a plenty around, mainly racing yachts. I do have a carbon fibre water ski though, which funnily enough gets wet quite often. Plus fishing rods as mentioned above.

My guess is impact damage or over tighteneing. Carbon fibre doesn't like stress like that. Once cracked it could 'wick' as Gerry said and absorb water, which would amplify the problem, but water in itself wont hurt it. The crack would have come first, then the swelling.

[Bennymiata]

I still wouldn't give up my Cf tripod for anything else!
Nothing beats them, not only for lightness, but for sturdiness too.

[Lance B]

I still wouldn't give up my Cf tripod for anything else!
Nothing beats them, not only for lightness, but for sturdiness too.

Agreed. My Manfrotto 055CX3 is a beauty! :)

[Dylfish]

On the other hand, aluminium that is not anodised can be damaged by high concentration salt water (Sea water will sometimes be enough), despite it's resistance to normal corrosion. Beware of long exposure of aluminium to salt water! You're better off with CF than aluminium in salt, though if you wash them well each time, you'll have no problem with Al.

Agreed, i work at an aluminium company and you wouldn't belive how many people come back whinging about corrosion due to salt water. My new DIY pano head has been anodised to 25um (which is recomended for houses <1km of the coast) and will cop a serious washing after every use near the beach.

[George Edwards]

Basically, salt water is evil stuff... Not even boat owners or high quality aluminium and CF fishing gear (I have both and always wash the Al well, though the CF is usually fine) leave their things unwashed after use. Just wash everything, including interior spaces, and you'll be fine. Leave salt water on anything (Even stainless steel) and it can corrode.

[ving]

oh the woes of CF... a mountain biker from way back the dream material was always titanium, but CF was alway a good weight saver. the problem being that if you chip the resin or it gets a deep enough scratch water can get in and cause al sorts of havoc. its a brilliant material if handled correctly tho and for most ppl it will be ideal. I had a friend who made a fork brace for his MTB and it worked great, but he didnt spend enough time sealing it with resin and well.... one day it sorta fell apart. LOL

[William]

:confused013What sort of corrosion on Aluminium, Staining or like rust/decay type of thing I dont have any at all , And most days it's in the water (Salt) Just wondering cause I'm up for a new tripod , But only due to the plastic pan head wearing out and getting wobbly after 5 yrs of use like this

[Duane Pipe]

Aluminium corrosion is like rust Bill, Hmmm Think about old aluminium window frames, they get white powdery rust type spots on them, how's that for my tech no how:lol2:
I think if you are on a budget stick with the alloy and if you can avoid scratching the coating and give it a light spray with fresh water after every salt bath it will out last the head I recon Bill.

[William]

Thanks Dave , I probably dont give mine a chance for the powder to form I was thinking, Gets used every day , And I do occasionally wash it under the showers at the beach as I'm finished , Like your technical wording though Dave , Thanks mate

[nanwu]

Worth thinking about anyway when i upgrade from my ten dollar dicksmith tripod one of tthese days :)

[George Edwards]

The corrosion depends on a lot of factors. Stress (Set your leg clips too tight), dissimilar metals (steel screws in aluminium), prolonged exposure (not washing), damaged coating, etc. If it's anodised and not left in a damp environment, unwashed, then it should be fine. Surface corrosion is not a problem with Aluminium, as it forms a protective layer (All dull looking aluminium surfaces are "corroded", most products are designed to do this), it's only at screw holes, joins etc where you get problems. Most likely will be that your legs will seize up.