Another thread on prices

[NatalieM]

So I'm currently portfolio building in child photography and have about 12 shoots lined up, a couple freebies and others on a reduced rate, so I can get some experience in that particular area and have a reasonable portfolio.

I'm now considering what my real prices would be and have....no idea. Everyone says don't undercharge but it seems I can't find any around here that charge more than $200. I've only found about two that seem very good and that charge quite high prices, but that's it.

Do you just charge the market price around your area?

[Mark L]

...... I've only found about two that seem very good and that charge quite high prices, ....


Are you very good?

[NatalieM]

Er, *portfolio building* so *new in that area*.

[kiwi]

Work out your costs, the income and the income youd like to make first. Not much use charging $50 if you're loosing money.

Have you established a proper business, registered your company, got public liability insurance ?

In saying all that, $200 is a pretty average shoot & burn type price from what I can see.

Average for pretty decent and experienced family photographers too.






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[William W]

I'm now considering what my real prices wouldbeand have....noidea. Everyone says don't undercharge but it seems I can't find any around herethat charge more than $200. I've only found about two that seemvery good and that charge quite high prices, but that's it.

What are the “Real Prices” and the competitor’s comparative $200 being pricedfor –
The sitting?
The interview, prep and sitting?
The Interview the Sitting and the CD of 6 images or 5 prints ? ? ?

You firstly have to define what it is you are selling.
Actually - you firstly have to define precisely what is the business, in which you are engaged: and that will then define exactly what it is you are selling and then you can price those items and / or services.

So please then define: exactly what is your business?

WW

[jasevk]

Whatever you do, before going into this as a business, make sure you have public liability insurance first, when photographing kids... Accidents are more likely than ever and you'll want to be covered 'just in case'


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[NatalieM]

Yep I already insurance have it as I was photographing dogs so it was a given with those!

From what I can see online, the 'average' price would be $200 which includes the sitting fee, processing etc, and about 10-15 photos on disc.

I find it difficult to work out whether I should act like a 'newbie' because of lack of experience in *this* area, or take into account I do have some years of experience and have been published, won some awards etc. Maybe that doesn't matter because it's a whole different area.

I also feel a bit of pressure from 'photographers' in general to not go too cheap. I do know providing SOME images on disc is going to be a given, I just don't know how many yet.

I think my minimum goal for now would be to have one session a week @ 250 and that would be enough income for me at the moment.

[William W]

. . . I think my minimum goal for now would be to have one session a week @ 250 and that would be enough income for me at the moment.

Thanks for answering some of the questions.

For what you have described, $250 seems to be a good price point.

WW

[Shelley]

I feel the pressure in regard to amount of photos to supply, I usually say 8 or 11 depending on price for edited shots up front, as when you click away, they assume that you have heaps and I am always asked for more.

[macmich]

another $90 bucks working with children check
cheers macca

[kiwi]

You don't actually need that unless you're with kids without their parents supervision, unlikely in photography

[reaction]

if you charge a sitting fee and charge also for each photo, will that fly?

[maccaroneski]

if you charge a sitting fee and charge also for each photo, will that fly?

I've been doing some investigating and that would seem to be a popular methodology.

Another might be a combination of the two - you might charge a sitting fee which includes a component that is credit toward prints/photos (e.g. $250 sitting fee, but that includes $50 credit toward photos).

In my opinion that might also psychologically work a little better by demonstrating what the money goes toward, and avoid some "sticker shock" - "$500 including 5 photos" sounds a little steeper than "$250 + $50 per shot" to my ears, although the same result is achieved if the customer orders 5 photos.

[NatalieM]

I like that second idea. If you include a $50 print credit as an example, would you just have a list of how much each sized print costs (ie you sell 8 x 10's for $35) and then they choose?

[maccaroneski]

Yep, taht's it.

[farquar]

I do know providing SOME images on disc is going to be a given, I just don't know how many yet.

Why?

If you actually want to make a living (generally more than $250/week if you look at the average - or even the minimum Australian wage) I would suggest you reconsider giving away digital files by default.

As others have stated, you need to know what you are selling. There is ALOT more money in selling artwork for peoples walls than there is in a disc with some files on it.

There was a survey recently (sorry i cant remember by whom - I think it was AIPP related) but the results showed that the average portrait sale was $1000. I have overheads and need to feed my family so this average wouldn't sustain my business. Selling files on a disc doesn't give you much room to maximise the opportunity when a cashed up client comes your way.

Keep asking questions though. Thats a good start.

[William W]

Why?

Good Question.

For clarity, I understood the OP's statement "to give away some files on disc" as being part of the definition of the business: and the definition of her business, is what my response in Post #8, was based upon.

Also, it is useful to note that "income" of $250.00 per week, is not actually the OP's income, as if it were wages after taxation and other deductions, it is actually the business's weekly turnover.


WW

[ricktas]

You also need to survey and get an understanding of your clientele. For example, no use charging $750.00 in an area of lower income, or $250.00 in Toorak. Your prices have to not only be profitable, but fit with the market you are in. If you find your business model doesn't work for your market area, you need to change your business model, or find a different market to target.

As well as asking photographers, start talking to your potential clients. Ask them what they want!

[NatalieM]

Thanks all for things to think about.

Why? Because I know that's what most do want. I don't want to give away the digital files, but I do want to provide at least medium res on disc as part of the fee. I'm just not sure how many etc. I think there is a thread on here about stay at home mums becoming photographers, well even though this doesn't apply to me realistically (already being a photographer), it does actually give me quite an insight into the customer base already. I go to playgroups and swimming and other baby activities and so this gives me an automatic base. I haven't yet figured out what they're willing to pay, but EVERYONE likes images on disc for the simple purpose of sharing on facebook etc. I also think from a marketing perspective in this kind of community, it'll help with word of mouth.

However as mentioned here I don't really know yet how to figure it out to include it without it hurting print sales significantly!

I'll be targeting the surf coast mums (I'm in Ocean Grove, VIC) so there is definite money here.

I'm thinking of doing an A la carte option and then some packages.

[William W]

Why? Because I know that's what most do want. Idon't want to give away the digital files, but Ido want to provide at least medium res on disc as part of the fee.

My error and it was unintentional:
I was thinking "giving away" but you originally wrote "providing" - that's noted.
I assume then, that the price of the“providing” will be in the Sitting Fee.

OK, I do not want to begin a discussion about the source of the info that people want files on a disc from a portrait sitting; or whether even if it is good to provide them with the files.

We'll assume that MOST people do want files and we'll also assume that you want to provide files from the Portrait Sitting, because most people want it.



However as mentioned here I don't really know yet how to figure it out to include it without it hurting print sales significantly!


Well that's the crux of this issue.

You want to provide what (you say) people want: but you also want to sell prints.

So - assuming you book some initial sittings (without the value of facebook networking using disc files) - are you suggesting that once you "provide" for example 15 images on a disc (included in the sitting cost) that you anticipate that the print sales for that sitting would be compromised?

Maybe compromised to the extent that the customer will say: “Oh no thanks,we don't want any prints, if we do we'll just get those files done at the camerashop, we only want postcards anyway."




I'll be targeting the surf coast mums (I'm in OceanGrove, VIC) so there is definite money here. I'm thinking of doing an A lacarte option and then some packages.

So with “definite money”, wouldn't those mums have a Hi Res P&S or DSLRwith which they take the facebook snaps of their kids?"

Or if those Mums buy 4 - 10 x 8 prints - those "definite money" Mums would have a scanner for the facebook images if they wanted to . .


If you asked those Mums (the "definite money" Mums), "from the portrait sitting do you want me to include digital files so you can post them on facebook?" I agree . . . I bet nearly everyone will say YES!.

Alternatively . . . if your business is really about selling PRINTS . . . ? ? ?


In any case: these points are minutia and just re-iterating . . .
It would be in your best interests to address the question in post #5: i.e. to accurately Define the Business which you wish to begin.

WW

[mcmahong]

I think after you've made it through your first set of photoshoots, you'll start to build your own idea of what is a reasonable price for your market. I started off almost identically to you, had no idea what to charge (and kind of still don't) as different clients always want something different - a few digitial copies, a whole suite, a few wall pieces, etc. Quite often, clients specifically ask for images on disk as they know they can get a cheap printing deal to do themselves, such as those one-day coupon sites.

Another consideration is post-processing. A few times I've had clients say they love certain photos and would now like copies of them in black and white or some other editing like air-brushing. This can add a few hours to your time for that job, so consider whether you want to add an additional charge for those requests.

For your own calculations:
- price for the sitting/travel (maybe $50)
- a rate per hour of photographing (say $30-$50 per hour) - you determine what you are worth
- cost for consumables like batteries (maybe $30)
- cost for post-processing (say $30-$50 per hour)
- cost for covering a % of your insurance (as a guide, divide your premium by the number of jobs you would expect in a year)
- cost for prints, if needed

This comes close to your estimate of $250 for the job or more, if just providing digital copies. For that price, you still want to ensure you are delivering a quality product. In that market, one of your best advertising methods is probably word-of-mouth. Mums in mothers groups love to show off their baby prints!

[Black Dog]

I think the point what business are you in is more relevant today than ever.

Also the response to "are you any good" is irrelevant to your comment back. You can be a very accomplished photographer and and the skills are fully transferrable from children's portrait to senior citizens. Alternatively you could be a complete hack! So the quality of your work is linked more so to your pricing than your experience in shooting a particular topic.


I have worked for several portrait studios as a photographer and others as a retoucher. I can tell you that it is more about sales than photography if you want to generate any kind of income.

For example on place I worked we had a new client in the studio it self on the hour every hour, they could be individuals, families, couples anything and in that hour we had to get 200 saleable captures, do at least 3 lighting and set changes, and three wardrobe changes. Formal to nudes and everything in between. There was a fee for the sitting and that varied depending on promotions, sometimes a free 8x10 was included.

The sales person would then sell very high $$ for prints. Average sale $2500 never sold a single image on disk.

Point being you make your money in the prints sales not the sitting. If you provide images on disk it not only ruins profits it it bad marketing.

EG You see what should be a great B&W print hanging on the wall instead the client took your color image on dis and hit desaturate (grey scale rendition not a B&W image) then got it printed without any color control, and a grey image printed on a color system turns out to be magenta cast. Someone comes to the clients house and ask who produced this purpley colored flat toned image and they say YOU!

Worse yet the print it on their own desk top printer.

Also with images on disk you miss out on further contact with the client when they come to collect prints which often leads to them buy a gift voucher for a friends sitting or ordering further images they want to give to family or ones that they have regretted not ordering on the day.


Any way that is my 2cents or more like 10c lol

[SamanthaB]

What if you provide the digital negative if a print is bought rather than giving it away per se.

I charge a sitting fee of 100-250 depending on whether it's a family/newborn/child which includes [1] free print and then I offer several options in regards to digital files i.e. 5 to 50 on a disc at incremental increases and I also offer prints. Even though my prints are ridiculously inexpensive for professional printed images people still opt to just pay a couple of hundred dollars to get the images on a disc (which they will forget they bought in a year and they will never get printed... but they might get splashed on facebook so I make a watermarked low res version of each and include in the contract that they are the only images that can be shared online)

[William W]

What if you provide the digital negative if a print is bought rather than giving it away per se.

I charge a sitting fee of 100-250 depending on whether it's a family/newborn/child which includes [1] free print and then I offer several options in regards to digital files i.e. 5 to 50 on a disc at incremental increases and I also offer prints. Even though my prints are ridiculously inexpensive for professional printed images people still opt to just pay a couple of hundred dollars to get the images on a disc (which they will forget they bought in a year and they will never get printed... but they might get splashed on facebook so I make a watermarked low res version of each and include in the contract that they are the only images that can be shared online)


The answer is: it depends what business one is in. It depends upon the Definition of the Business.


The Business, as described in the second para. above, is predicated upon the selling digital files as one of the two, Primary Offers of Sale. (The other Primary Offer of Sale is the Portarit Sitting)

If that is working to achieve the Goals of the Business - then that is fine.


But the description of the Offer for Sale, of the digital negatives - is NOT at all in accord at all with the First Sentence: "What if you provide the digital negative if a print is bought rather than giving it away per se"

The digital files can be purchased WITHOUT ANY prints being purchased. . . as the first print is free and then "I offer several options in regards to digital files i.e. 5 to 50 on a disc at incremental increases.

The FACT that most Customers, then opt to buy only the FILES (and not prints) appears as one major element which is Defining The Business.

To put that another way - the Customers are Defining the Business: not the Business Owner.

Therefore it is an odds-on bet that the Customers will always have the leverage and thus will likely severely inhibit Growth of the Business, as one outcome.


WW

[NatalieM]

Thanks all, still thinking it all over :)