How much to Charge: My images on a Park Sign

[enduro]

Hi all,

A local City wants to place a bunch of my images on a sign at a local park. The sign will be about 2.5mx3.5m I am yet unaware of how many images or what size they will be printed.

How much to charge for each image?

I'm thinking in the order of $100 - $150 each.

[enduro]

31 views and no response, now that's pretty normal!

Your input is appreciated.

An update: The City have come back to me with a selection of 16 images and have indicated they would like to use the images for the proposed sign and any future publications.

[Ms Monny]

Firstly, congrats on the offer!! Image all the people who will see it! Take some pics of it when it is up and show us.

I would like to suggest something but I have NO IDEA what would be a good amount. I guess it comes down to what you would like from them. Maybe suggest a price (maybe a bit higher than you would like) and they can either say ya or nay and it can go from there. I personally think the amount you said is not enough!! How about $200 per image? Even that would be cheap.

Hope this helps...prob not though. Hopefully the 31 people who looked also didn't have a clue!!

[enduro]

I like the sound of $200 an image. The cost of a full colour sign, including installation, design etc I imagine would be about 8k-10k. A recent Real Estate Sign I paid for was 3.5K.

I'm thinking about a Canon 5D MkIII and wouldn't mind covering that and need to raise about three and a half grand for it.

[livio]

Hi, Enduro, hmm your question has the potential to open up the biggest can of worms and a healthy and passionate discussion. They are your images after all and you should be able to negotiate your price based on experience, skill content, timimg and managing expectations. If you can reach an agreement then good job.

[Allie]

I admit I was one of the 31 but I had no idea what price should be placed on such images but now you know how many images and you know how much you want to get out of this then $3.5K divided by 16 is approx $219 so make it at least $225 per image to give you some small room for negotiation or a blanket $3.6K for the same reason. Depends what the council has budgeted to use your images and whether it is important for you to either not price yourself out of their budget or not seem expensive enough. Congratulations on being considered - I hope they include some mention on the sign that they are your images. :wd:

[William W]

An update: The City have come back to me with aselection of 16 images and have indicated they would like to use the images for the proposed sign and any future publications.

Hmm, their requirements are fluid – seems to me to be smart negotiation.
On the face of it - I would want more than 200~250 per image for ONGOING publication rights and / or an image credit on the publications.

Who initially approached whom?
What is the background to these negotiations?
What are the Council’s other Options for the sign images and the publications?
Who holds the position of power?
Who in the Council is making the decision? - the person you are negotiating with or does s/he have to get it ticked off higher up?
Have you had dealings with them before?


etc . . .



The price you can render for each image is dependent upon many factors – you have not supplied enough information.


WW

[reaction]

I'd say much more than $200 too. 2x3m is gigantic!

[enduro]

I'd say much more than $200 too. 2x3m is gigantic!

The sign is large, but there will be more than 16 images on it.

[enduro]

Hmm, their requirements are fluid – seems to me to be smart negotiation.
On the face of it - I would want more than 200~250 per image for ONGOING publication rights and / or an image credit on the publications.

Who initially approached whom?
They approached me.

What is the background to these negotiations?
They have noted I keep winning (or getting places) their photo competitions and have purchased images from me in the past to decorate their walls/archive.
They loaned 16 images from me to produce a brochure of wildlife that was printed to about 10000 copies. The sign in related to the brochures and also related to promoting awareness of natural areas.

What are the Council’s other Options for the sign images and the publications?
Option #1: No to do the sign, or find reasons not to.
Option #2: Pay me the money required to acquire the images for the intended and future purpose.
Option #3: Purchase the images from other sources (stock images?). The images I could not supply in the past were very poor quality.

Who holds the position of power?
Does there need to be one? I own the images, they have the money.

Who in the Council is making the decision? - the person you are negotiating with or does s/he have to get it ticked off higher up?
The Counciller placing an order for the sign to be installed and the area manager.

Have you had dealings with them before?
Yes, but they wouldn't pay me. I won't budge without payment anymore.


The price you can render for each image is dependent upon many factors – you have not supplied enough information.
I think you are great at asking questions and over complicating the transaction.

Any ideas on a more formal quoting system?

[William W]

Thank you for answering some of the questions.



Q - Who holds the position of power?
Response - Does there need to be one? I own the images, they have the money.

In any negotiation there is.
It is not a “need”, it just is.
It might be fluid and move from one party to the other.



Response - I think you are great at asking questions and over complicating the transaction.


I asked questions such that I could be better informed and therefore give what I consider to be better advice to you.
You asked the initial question.
It was you who sought advice.
It was you who wrote: "31 views and no response, now that's pretty normal!"
I merely wanted to give the best advice I could.
That is not complicated.
It is just professional.



Response - Any ideas on a more formal quoting system?
I do not know of any formula or formal quoting system for this situation.
My advice is - that it is silly to look for one.
I suggest you read Herb Cohen: he is not complicated.


In your position I would price my product at what I believe the market could bear.

At this time, from what has been disclosed, it occurs to me that the Council whilst initially subordinate in the negotiation, now holds the position of power: most predominately because of the mindset of the seller.

WW

[enduro]

You once again are over complicating the situation Bill.

You have also displayed this to the other readers.

[William W]

You once again are over complicating the situation Bill.

I was answering your question.
You may choose to ignore my advice - I don't mind.
We shall disagree on your commentary, that my advice is overcomplicated.


You have also displayed this to the other readers.

I have no idea what I have "displayed" to other readers or why you would make such inane comments upon my answers, to your requests for advice.

***

Goodnight and Good Luck with the sale of your photos.


WW

[enduro]

No thanks for you inane response. I hadn't expected anymore ...

NEXT!

[Tommo1965]

No thanks for you inane response. I hadn't expected anymore ...

NEXT!


I think you'll now get quite a few more views and no responses.... William W IMO was just asking questions to get a back ground before offering advice I read his post expecting you to answer his points but you were quite Rude to him

you have already given the shire images for free.. that's probably why they are back for more ..thats not complicated is it !

[Dan Cripps]

How does one go about 'loaning' images for publication?

I can see a profitable future in photography books if that's commonplace. :efelant:

[ricktas]

I think you'll now get quite a few more views and no responses.

I agree. Wayne you often 'whinge' about the number of replies you get to your threads, and perhaps your interaction above is the reason why? People don't comment cause they don't want that sort of rebuttal when they do.

[reaction]

I think if you're around long enough you'll find WW gives very useful advice on any topic he answers. You can disagree but you'd be a fool not to consider it carefully.

THat said, 2x3m worth of images, I'd ask for $1000.

[kiwi]

For waht it's worth, and that may be very litltle, seriously how many contributors here would have EVER sold images, lt alone for commercial use, let alone to a Council, let alone for the description

I'll have a guess - 0 ?

Try this though

http://www.featurepics.com/News/photo-license-fees-calculator.aspx

[ricktas]

For waht it's worth, and that may be very litltle, seriously how many contributors here would have EVER sold images, lt alone for commercial use, let alone to a Council, let alone for the description

I'll have a guess - 0 ?

Try this though

http://www.featurepics.com/News/photo-license-fees-calculator.aspx

at least 1. I have sold images to a council here in Tasmania. Not for a sign like this though. Mine were for marketing material, use on postcards of the region, etc, so did not comment on possible $ cause I have no idea.

[Bax]

I haven't got any idea as I've never sold any images.

But it does sound pretty obvious that they've come back for another bite of the cherry as they've been getting a free meal. If you suddenly up the price to something outrageous I can't see any reason why they'll retract their proposal and leave you on square one. So I'd imagine you'd want a price that was fair for you, but not ridiculously overpriced for them.

Perhaps some conditions of use with a sub $500 dollar figure.

[zollo]

i've done billboards and the like before, but mine is commissioned, we sign contracts and finalise prices before we do a shoot. for what its worth your scenario would probably most compare to stock photography, where the photo is taken with no end use in mind, so thats where i would look.

and agree with steve, you've already given them free images, why would they expect to pay you this time??

[enduro]

Thanks for the input everyone and sorry for being a bumhead in some of my responses ... I do appreciate (some of) your input.

Looking back: I have been a bit testy this week.

[Dan Cripps]

For waht it's worth, and that may be very litltle, seriously how many contributors here would have EVER sold images, lt alone for commercial use, let alone to a Council, let alone for the description

I'll have a guess - 0 ?

Plenty of times, but my area of expertise is the domestic market, so I'm not well placed to advise (much like Rick).

[William W]

In respect of the post questioning how many contributors at this site would have sold images to Government Agencies generally, then include me in that list: and specifically included in that list of "Sales to Government" include me in the list of sales to Municipal and Shire Councils.


***

In respect of the Original Question - the situation as has been described is similar to but not the same as Stock Photography.

It was not described that the images where taken as stock and then chosen by Council froma Stock Library where prices are most usually advertized or readily available.

Au contraire, there are many other elements dissimilar to Stock Photography, including the already established relationship the OP has with the Council, which appears was predicated mainly on supply of Images, pro bono.

If requiring a label: this situation appears to be more akin to Shooting on Speculation.

It also appears that by luck, happenstance or design, a relationship between the OP and the Council exists and was created mainly by the previous supply of images pro bono.

When Shooting on Speculation it is not (or was not?) uncommon to provide some initial samples pro bono, to create a relationship, for example with the Publicity Officer of the Instrument or Office.

However samples can be a two edged sword, as it is difficult to negotiate upwards from $0, if no solid mention or reference was made to: Price; Worth; Value and Conditions of Use, when those samples were supplied. So therefore in this new transaction any advance on $0 could be considered a good outcome.

***

In simple terms, establishing what price can be afforded or rejected by Council, can be arrived at by either of these methods:
Being part of a negotiation
OR
Stating the price as per a method or formulato arrive at a formal quote

The OP expressed that he only wanted advice on the latter. I re-iterate that this is not the line of action I advise: but it might be simpler, more convenient and quicker and therefore be the best for this OP in this particular situation, to use.

One basic line of attack to arrive at a price for an amateur’s one off sale, would be to cost the total time in making the products at the normal day job rate and then add 100% as this was “overtime” worked. Also then add a consideration for the rights of ongoing use mentioned – so let’s say add another100%. When costing the “total time” – ensure that PP and other time elements associated with the production areinclude, for example travelling to the site.

***


Everyone has testy weeks and can make bumhead remarks as a result.
It is my experience that few acknowledge same.
Thank you for thePM.
Good luck with the sale.

WW

[macmich]

a well drafted response and outcome to situation
cheers macca

[Mark L]

No experience here, but can you you find out, somehow, what they are prepared to pay?(what is there budget for this project?) You must have some contacts within the Council, maybe.

[rodw]

I'm not a pro but Have plenty of experience in negotiating. This represents an ideal opportunity to get some awesome free advertising. When you come up with a fair commercial price, then say to them you will give them a discount (I would suggest at least 30%, maybe more) if your business is prominiately featured on the sign. The value of the Advertising in your local community will bring in far more value over a number of years than whatever you can screw out of the council for this display. If they want rights to use the photos elsewhere, then that is a different negotiation. The key to this is to set the discount to a substantial value that is hard for them to ignore.

Maybe it is something like "the commercial value of what you have requested is $3,000 but because it is promoting our community, I will do it for $1000 provided the display includes my business details in a minimimum size of 500x300mm" or whatever will be big enough to make your details readable. Then go on to say that if they wish an ongoing license to the material, it will be $x per photo, whatever is a fair thing.

I'd be trying to establish how the project is being funded and what the budget is. Maybe it is from an Arts grant from state/federal govt which sets a hard limit.

Your job is to maximise the sales opportunity and the commercial value will be set by how much you can get for it, not by a theoretical discussion.

[ScottM]

I was one of the original viewers too... On http://www.aphotoeditor.com/ he's occasionally considered pricing of images, and referred to a couple sites that have costing calculators. None of the calculators I've found are really suitable for this proposed use. As others have pointed out, it's not commissioned work, nor quite stock.
I'd do the usual business thing that's come up on here a few times - cost the time to take the photos and use that as a starting point. Include travel, time taking the photos, post-processing, other time overheads, equipment allowances (eg equivalent of if you rented equipment for a few days to take them), profit, ...
Make sure though you have a contract with them; non-transferrable rights, attribution, and NOT perpetual usage, and define the type of on-going use they're permitted to use, not just anywhere for anything.
I think you should be looking at $250-$300 per image as a starting point to negotiate on, but that's an unexperienced guestimate myself. You're unlikely to get a large attribution/promotion area on the sign as I'm assuming it's largely local nature information they want to convey. There's an expectation of free photos now, but recondition them!
And congrats and good luck :)

[enduro]

I don't feel that it is appropriate to say what the end result was, but I do suggest going to the highest you would expect to charge for the work. The group I was working with were very quick to respond and I am VERY happy with the outcome.

[ScottM]

And part of Negotiation involves the common ground, but also what each _requires_ and wants from that.
If you start at your high price. Know what your minimum price is - given travel, equipment, family/support costs are - you'll come to an agreement about a reasonable price for both parties, based on a defined usage :)

[William W]

I am VERY happy with the outcome.

Very Good.

WW