D600 rumours - Silver bullet or white elephant?

[MattNQ]

Today's topic for Deep & Meaningless rumour debate :D
Rumours of a sub $2k D600 entry level full frame body seems to be slowly increasing.

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/04/25/another-full-frame-dslr-on-the-horizont-nikon-d600.aspx/


For me, when I am eventually in a position to upgrade my fairly basic body, there are 'must haves' - eg. focus motor drive, weather sealing, etc , that I don't have now. But I don't wan't or need the fluff like in-camera HDR & RAW editing, inbuilt GPS etc. So personally a second hand D700 would probably fulfill my immediate needs.

Question of the day - would you buy an entry level full frame? Especially if it is likely to be priced in the ballpark of both a second hand D700, and the D7000 replacement (which, when it eventually shows up, should be a rather impressive beast) ?
Or would it be filling a niche that doesn't really need filling?

[Chris G]

The last time I heard a rumour like this was about a D8/900 that didn't arrive for another 2 years or so lol..

Everyone is still waiting for the D700 replacement, a Nikon spokesmen did state that the D800 was "NOT" its successor to the D700.

Honestly with what Nikon has been throwing out at this point, its all very hard to determine where they are heading or what they are upto. I think this will be a case of sitting back and waiting to see what happens over a years course. Clearly they have a major game plan with the newly released DSLR 3200 @ 24mp on a entry...

To your question: I'd buy one just a cheaper back up or second cam on the job so I didn't need to switch lens constantly.. Though like you say, why would if you can pick up a D700 for the same price (providing it did actually come out at that price) which I can't see happening.

[rirakuma]

If they release a D700 successor it will probably have the D4 sensor with the D4s released soon after :angel6:

[arthurking83]

I'd pay sub $2K for a 12-14Mp Fx sensor body.

I don't really have a need for 36Mp.

As long as it has the minimum feature list of the D7000/D300 then I'm in :th3:

D4 sensor would be nice, D3s sensor would be nice .. doesn't have to achieve ISO200K, but high quality ISO52K would also be an advantage too.
Fast frame rates(6fps) is also a handy ability to have, as well as manual lens metering capability.

100% viewfinder is also a must have(for me).

Anyhow, I think this rumoured camera has to be in the works from Nikon .. when It'll get released is another question tho!

I'm currently accumulating the necessary funds for a D800 anyhow, and if this rumoured camera eventuates and is sub $2K territory ... and has the min feature requirements I want to see then I'll take one, plus an appropriate $1K lens to boot :D

I'm just hoping that Nikon sees the nonsense in a 24Mp DX sensor D300s replacement

[Tommo1965]

good question Matt and one I was asking myself about two weeks ago before I bought a used D700....Id even given up on a used D700, but when one came up locally with only 2000 shutter actuations I was all over it like a schoolboy on his first date...:D

my thought process at the moment is if Nikon release a D600 with better specs than the D700 and I want it, Ill buy it..if that reduces the price of my $1800 used D700 to $1200..then so be it , but I wanted better high ISO now so I took the plunge

I think in the real world and unless your doing video or Birding and need to crop loads..a D700 will do the job just fine....shooting at 3200 and 6400 ISO the files only need a fraction of what the D300s needed to get rid of the noise.

and reality seeing as Nikon can hardly keep up with its D800 orders I doubt Ill be looking at camera bodies for at least a year or so

FWIW

on the video side of things and the lack of it on the D700... I've found its one less thing I need to worry about, as on a few occasions with the d300s , I found myself torn between taking video and stills..now my mind is free from that particular punishment :)



but yes I know the dilemma you face mate

[swifty]

Entry level or just a lite version?
Personally if I was in the market for FX, I'd consider a small FX camera without a lot of features but well built but I wouldn't buy a consumer build FX camera but with lots of in-camera wizz bang features.
Although perhaps all those features don't add any significant cost so it might not make a difference.
But yes, it'd be great if a D3s or D4 sensor makes it into a small and light but pro-build camera. But somehow I don't think such a beast would qualify as an entry-level and hence cheaper model.

What would make a camera cheaper? Since the sensor's usually the most expensive component so either a recycled sensor or one that will be made in large volumes, perhaps another co-developed Sony sensor?
Recycled parts?
Lesser build?
Dunno for sure but I don't like any of those trade-offs except the sensor where any current and past FX sensors are just fine.

[RRRoger]

Let's Speculate

Rumor:
24MP,
HD Video,
no internal screwdriver AF motor,
expected announcement before PhotoKina in September.
Price $1500

I would expect it to have:
Expeed 3 processor
51 focus points with 15 cross types
4fps shooting speed
Nikon Multi-CAM 3500FX autofocus module
twin SD cards

I would like it to have:
smaller lighter body like D5100
articulating LCD that is readable in daylight
100+ shot buffer
clean ISO 25,600
6fps shooting speed
HD1080P at 60fps
4MP movie frame size
Accurate Full time AutoFocus
MultiSelector lock
EN-EL15 Lithium-ion Battery
immediate availability

It could have:
no mirror box
Electronic ViewFinder
made in China on the housing

[I @ M]

I would like it to have:
smaller lighter body like D5100
articulating LCD that is readable in daylight
100+ shot buffer
clean ISO 25,600
6fps shooting speed
HD1080P at 60fps
4MP movie frame size
Accurate Full time AutoFocus
MultiSelector lock
EN-EL15 Lithium-ion Battery
immediate availability

Why do you want one Roger, apparently you own a D800 and a D4 according to your posts here (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?99458-D800-is-here&p=1002164#post1002164)and here (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?101298-D4-is-on-the-way%21&p=994576#post994576) so you would seem to have all bases covered already.

Mind you, it has been a while since you got the new toys and we haven't seen an image from either yet.
You know what they say, an image is worth a thousand words. :rolleyes:

[RRRoger]

I would have kept the D4 if I could afford it even though it is too heavy for me.
The D600 should be considerably lighter, cheaper, and would replace the D7000.

As for the D800, it is a keeper.

http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=88788 http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=88787 http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=88786 http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=88785 http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=88784 http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=88788

[arthurking83]

.....

I would like it to have:
smaller lighter body like D5100
.....

LOL!

Smaller lighter body like a D5100 already exists!

It's called .. funnily enough .. a D5100

To think that you're going to get anything like what you're asking for from a Fx sensor with some of the performance specs in a D5100 sized body is pretty hilarious.

I'm always amazed at peoples comments re smaller lighter body .. when they seem to only own 1Kg plus sized lenses!!

IIRC, you also have a Nikon V1 or J1 or similar.. there's a smaller lighter body for 'ya.. you need more.

A 200g weight saving is pretty much insignificant when the total gross weight of the camera and lens is 2000g(ie. 2kg), and more so when all that weight is out the front making for a more pronounced front heavy setup .. and you want a 200g weight saving on the body!! :confused:

I have a "smaller, lighter" camera body in the form of a plastic bodied D70s .. I attach my 70-200/2.8 to it, and the weight difference between this set up and the D300 setup with the same lens is negligible to most people.

The front heaviness of the lens basically swamps the weight saving of the 200g lighter body.

It's lunacy to think of the weight of the total system in those terms. It may sound as though there is a difference in pure numbers, but the reality is that the lens (as most large lenses do) is the culprit when it comes to weight balance and distribution for a camera setup.

The only situation where I could see where a 200g weight saving on the camera body will have a large impact is if you are using small lightweight prime lenses .. 50mm f/1.8 sized glass!

You seem to be predominantly tied to the 14-24, 28-70, 70-200(all f/2.8's) and the 80-400VR .. all these lenses have a total mass greater than the camera body alone, so by attaching them to the camera you have already added 1kg or more, which is 5x greater than the weight saving of the smaller lighter D5100 sized camera body.

I suppose the only other (although highly improbable) situation here, is that you just like carrying around camera bodies without any attached lenses for some reason, and just need a very light one to carry around.

And yet after all this chatter about light weight and small sizing .. earlier this year you posted that you were first in line on the D4 waiting list at your local camera store!! :Doh:

You do realise that the D4 is not exactly small lightweight and compact in any way? .. and you ordered it anyhow! :scrtch:

[RRRoger]

LOL!

Smaller lighter body like a D5100 already exists!
It's called .. funnily enough .. a D5100
To think that you're going to get anything like what you're asking for from a Fx sensor with some of the performance specs in a D5100 sized body is pretty hilarious.

Reply: I had a D5100. Even with the same lens attached it was noticeably lighter to me.
However, I think that to shoehorn a FullFrame Sensor in a similar body, Nikon will have to remove the mirror box and use an EVF.
Thus reducing the weight even more.
I would probably dedicate an AF-S Nikkor 28-300 lens to it.
Although not light, still lighter and easier to handle than a 70-200 or 80-400 lens


Quote>And yet after all this chatter about light weight and small sizing .. earlier this year you posted that you were first in line on the D4 waiting list at your local camera store!! :Doh: You do realize that the D4 is not exactly small lightweight and compact in any way? .. and you ordered it anyhow! :scrtch: QUOTE

Reply: The D4 is the ultimate Event Camera. It is extremely fast and forgiving of my user errors.
I did get "Hands On" before passing on it due to cost and weight.

[I @ M]

Reply: I had a D5100. Even with the same lens attached it was noticeably lighter to me.
However, I think that to shoehorn a FullFrame Sensor in a similar body, Nikon will have to remove the mirror box and use an EVF.
Thus reducing the weight even more.
I would probably dedicate an AF-S Nikkor 28-300 lens to it.
Although not light, still lighter and easier to handle than a 70-200 or 80-400 lens

Roger, I really reckon you need to reconsider whether photography is the hobby for you.

Certainly if you reckon the combination of a D5100 and 28-300 which are a lightweight body and a lightweight slow aperture zoom lens are going to provide you with the snapshots you want then you will probably be happy.

If you are happy to carry around a D800, you did say you were keeping that one didn't you, but couldn't handle the approx 3/4 of a can of coke more in weight I think that you being a little on the precious side actually.

Granted, both the D800 and D4 are heavy in comparison to the plastic bodied cameras but everyone knows the weight of the pro range in Nikon always has been heavy for a few very good reasons.

They are meant to be able to handle the rigours of commercial use, work tirelessly for long hours at a time and produce professional level images when mated to heavy pro level lenses.

Generally they are owned by photographers who can utilise the tool to earn their crust and don't seem to suffer from limp wrists after using the gear for what it is intended for.

Where do you fit into the scheme of things?

Sounds to me like you need to reconsider the whole photography thing, buy a compact for your holiday snapshots and to put the dollars saved towards more leisure time on the deck of a cruise ship.

We still haven't seen any photos of yours from either the "keeper" D800 or the returned D4, is that because the cameras were too heavy and you got blurry shots from them?

[RRRoger]

Roger, I really reckon you need to reconsider whether photography is the hobby for you.
Reply: After 60 years of photography and dozens of cameras, millions of pictures, sales and investment of about 1/4 million $, this is more than a hobby.


Certainly if you reckon the combination of a D5100 and 28-300 which are a lightweight body and a lightweight slow aperture zoom lens are going to provide you with the snapshots you want then you will probably be happy.
Reply: Didn't you hear me say I sold my D5100?


If you are happy to carry around a D800, you did say you were keeping that one didn't you, but couldn't handle the approx 3/4 of a can of coke more in weight I think that you being a little on the precious side actually.
Reply: most people cannot hold an empty hand out in front of them for more than a few minutes without feeling some pain.
Try hand holding a D2x and Bigma for 10 hours while taking over 5 thousand photos at an Event.


Granted, both the D800 and D4 are heavy in comparison to the plastic bodied cameras but everyone knows the weight of the pro range in Nikon always has been heavy for a few very good reasons.
They are meant to be able to handle the rigours of commercial use, work tirelessly for long hours at a time and produce professional level images when mated to heavy pro level lenses.
Generally they are owned by photographers who can utilise the tool to earn their crust and don't seem to suffer from limp wrists after using the gear for what it is intended for.
Reply: Exactly why I ordered the D4


Where do you fit into the scheme of things?
Reply: At 67 years, I am in the process of retiring.
We used to do 2 or more Events per week, now less than that per month.
Both of my shoulders have been operated on for bone spurs and torn rotator cups.
I recently built 3 retaining walls with 50 lb blocks, but really don't want to do that
or hand hold a D4 and 70-200 for even 6 hours at an Event anymore.
And, no a TriPod or MonoPod do not work near as well for MotoCross or to shoot over the high rail at Equestrian Events.


Sounds to me like you need to reconsider the whole photography thing, buy a compact for your holiday snapshots and to put the dollars saved towards more leisure time on the deck of a cruise ship.
Reply: I have a V1 for my pocket but think a lightweight D600 might make a better Travel camera. I hate boat rides.


We still haven't seen any photos of yours from either the "keeper" D800 or the returned D4, is that because the cameras were too heavy and you got blurry shots from them?
Reply: I have posted plenty and some are in my gallery here and on Nikonians.
Lots more recent ones at Assured Photos dot com.
Look for Travel and Stock Photos and an r in the name ie 042612r00012
Some might be slightly blurry but still "keepers" because my customers buy "memories" not art objects.

[Xebadir]

Getting back to the topic at hand, would seem that the D600 is going to appear in a D7000-esque body from this recent leak:
http://nikonrumors.com/2012/06/14/first-leaked-nikon-d600-images.aspx/

Note the positioning of the record, metering buttons and the overall ergonomics, which are somewhat different to the D7000. The other noticeable feature is the 10 pin remote plus, which is noticeably absent and replaced with an IR remote sensor. Seems that nikon have also chosen to go with the dual layered selector dial for this model. Will be interesting to see how early the rumors have proceeded the model announcement date, though usually pictures suggest it will be sooner rather than later. Also seems to fit with the recent lens releases which seem firmly targetted at an entry level FX model that doesn't exist in the lineup (24-85 F3.5-5.6, 18-300 Superzoom). Seems like Nikon is firmly going in for the kill while it holds the advantage (D4/D800(E)/D600/D3200 will now all have higher resolution than anything Canon has to offer (not sure this is a good thing) with performance we come to expect), and seems to be gearing up to bring out at least 2 more DX replacements this year as well (Possibly 3, but basically two of a "Pro-DX" in either a D400 or D7100 form (outside chance of both with the 5x00 series going the way of the dinosaur), and a D5200).

[Tommo1965]

I expect the release of the D600 will push the used price of the D700 south ?..

[MattNQ]

I'm thinking if the D600 body isn't pro-build quality & it has no motor drive, then used D700 prices will probably not drop as much as we would like.

[Xebadir]

Actually if you go by those pics it seems it will have a motor drive, which would make things interesting. Pro-build I don't think will be an issue (given the 7000 is a mag body). If it has performance anywhere near the D700 for ISO with increase MP then you could expect the D700 used prices to fall substantially. It also depends on its pricing point I think to how much it causes falls for the D700.

[I @ M]

Matt and John.
If you are referring to the camera having an inbuilt AF motor, by the images it has. Motor drives are generally, by old school definition, the added on grips to automatically advance FILM at a rapid rate on cameras that originally didn't have the built in ability.

To me, the presented photos look quite real, the lack of 10 pin connector and flash synch port along with an auto mode on the dial put it right on the D7000 level of body.
Is this the D700 replacement? I can't see them having that many current models in an FX line up somehow -- D600 D700 D800/E D3s, D3x and D4
Where does the DX line up head, I reckon they will obsolete the D5### line, keep the 3####, D7#### and add a D4##

[swifty]

The D600 specs will out-gun the D700 in almost every way, much like how the D7000 out-specced the D300s but it won't really be a direct replacement.
However in this case the D700 is probably already good enough as is (for the majority) whereas the high ISO performance of the D300s was perceived as lacking, and the D7000 changed that. So in this respect I don't see an as big a fall in the D700 prices as did the D300s. But the addition of video could sway more folks.

I think the D600'll be a massive seller not only for upgraders but owners of large FX Nikons have a simpler choice lens wise if they want something small and light.

I predict $1999 for the D600 and 24-85 bundle. Maybe $1699 body only? USD that is.

[I @ M]

Maybe $1699 body only? USD that is.

Wishful thinking I reckon swifty.

I will guesstimate $2200.00 to $2400.00 AUD at release.

[swifty]

Wishful thinking I reckon swifty.

I will guesstimate $2200.00 to $2400.00 AUD at release.

Yea, probably.
But I estimated $4k based on the rumoured specs of the D800 and it came in at $3k USD.
So I'm going the other way and estimating low based on Nikon's recent aggressive pricing.
Me thinks Sony's found a way to increase yields on those FX sensors and the rumoured one in the D600'll be shared with Sony's A99, furthering its economies of scale advantage.

[I @ M]

My thoughts go along the lines that the D600 is the D700 replacement. Remember when the D800 was released and Nikon said that it definitely wasn't the D700 replacement.
That gives you a potential model line up with prices at

D4 = $7000.00
D800 = $3400.00
D600 = $2400.00

( presuming that the D3x is either left in or retired, the D700 replaced by the 600 and the D3s naturally goes away as stocks are finished.

Then the DX line is funny and if they retire the D5100 it leaves a big retail jump from the new entry level body to the D7000. One would expect that the D90, D3100 and D5000 will be gone very soon as well.

D400 = $2000.00
D7000 = $1400.00
D5100 = $850.00
D3200 = $780.00

Maybe they have another model coming ------ :D

[farmer_rob]

I don't think there will be a D400 (why bring in an x00 DX camera, when all the D300 owners have gone to D800?), but the D600 looks to be a nice gap filler.

Consider:

D3200 - entry dx
D5100 - mid range dx ( replace with a D5200, 24 Mpix)
D7000 - top end dx (replace with D7100, 24 mpix, higher fps, fills in for D400)

D600 - entry fx (d300/d700 cross, with higher res FX)

D800 - mid range fx (ignoring the excessive pixels)
D4 - pro fx

In reality, what does a D400 offer? Who on FX will go back to DX?

There is scope to beef up the D7000 and to add a D4x (pro body, d800 sensor), but no real need for a D400.

Nikon are the only ones who can prove me wrong!

Regards,
Rob

[MattNQ]

If the rumoured specs ( http://mansurovs.com/nikon-d400-announcement-this-fall )
are true, a D400 would still be a better "low cost" semi-pro sports camera - unless of course the D7100 jumps ahead with these features as you suggest.

Very hard to work out what their cunning plan is....

[richardb]

Hi guys,
I even have the picts of D600 [url]http://forum.xitek.com/thread-1022917-1-1-2.html...,.......ahahahahaha

[I @ M]

Richard, your link is incomplete but I think it will go to the same place as the one in post #14 from yesterday ----

[richardb]

U r rite, link is ok. ( from Belgium Digital)
http://forum.xitek.com/thread-1022917-1-1-2.html
Woow, small world indeed, and more confusion for pple with NAS.
Greetz !

[swifty]

Further fueling my own speculations, Pentax is now also rumored to be using the same 24MP sensor in an upcoming camera.
So potentially 3 models'll be sharing the same sensor. Assuming A99 is the replacement for the A900, there's room for another Sony model replacing the A850 perhaps also using the same sensor as Sony's entry level FF, differentiated from the A99 by features.

[RRRoger]

Rumor has it that Canon is also coming out with a new 22MP "Entry Level" low cost FullFrame camera.
PhotoKina should be exciting this year.

[MarkOD]

To me the 600 doesnt look too interesting at all - too many compromises to reach a wider consumer price point. Not for me...

I'm just fascinated to see where Nikon is heading with their product roadmap..and Im holding back on replacing/augmenting my beloved 300s until it begins to makes some sense...
Hopefully its more substantial than just a megapixel race with Canon

I'm having trubble interpreting what the release of the 800 and 4 mean for the DX line and Nikons prosumer level cameras
Although the 800 is a mighty machine in many ways, it feels like its just the first shot in an ambitious bigger picture
My feeling is that the 800 will be seen as an early example , possibly rushed and compromised, and the next models will be the ones worth waiting for.

How long will we have to wait before their lineup becomes clearer ?

Notice also that a FF Canon D600 equivalent apears to be imminent - ie a sub $2k 5DIII - presumably they'll match each others offering , but neither is appealing to me

I would think a weather sealed FF 24 MP with great ISO, fps and AF would be very attractive for most - preferably without the bulk of the bigger D4 body

[I @ M]

I'm just fascinated to see where Nikon is heading with their product roadmap..and Im holding back on replacing/augmenting my beloved 300s until it begins to makes some sense...


My prediction is, based on your quoted words, is that you will never buy a new body ever again. :D
Bodies come and go, some sooner than others and if you wait for the next "best" thing you will die rich and camera less.

[MarkOD]

Unlikely !

I'm as vulnerable to Gear Acquisition Syndrome as the next guy - its a daily struggle, esp. with the 800E and a trip to the Utah canyons and New England coming up ...:)

[I @ M]

Mark, in short, just buy the D800 / E and you will live happily ever after until the next model comes along.

The AF sensor fault with the D800 is real, it will be fixed and there is nothing that I can see otherwise that has been rushed or compromised with that body. :)

[Sifor]

Eh, I was waiting for the D600 but couldn't help myself and got the D800 instead.

:lol2:

[Paul G]

Loving all the debate about the expensive new cameras. I'm still happily chugging away with my D200 :D

[Tommo1965]

im not buying a d800 until they get down to $1600au :lol:

[Photophil2010]

I would like to upgrade but I don't want a beginers FX camera.