Competitions, good thing or not?

[GrahamS]

Just wanted to put this out there to get the communities views on this subject.
I would love to get a little banner under my signature saying "Photo of the week Winner" but as yet it has eluded me, even though I finished in the top 4 a couple of times and I generally enter any comp that comes up. So what does this say to anyone that has been in a similar situation about our Photography, do we just accept the fact that maybe our photography is not up to competition standard and move on, do we get depressed about it or do we get obsessed about winning and focus (excuse the pun) on producing award winning shots. If we subscribe to the latter view, then does that not take away an element of the enjoyment of Photography, always looking for "The" shot instead of enjoying the moment?
Interested in your thoughts.
Cheers.

[Cris]

Interesting topic and I can certainly empathise with you, however I think there are so many variables and to win competitions you also need to get good CC so you can at least start to understand what improvements you may need to make. It is also unfortunate as sometimes when you look at the top 4 entries one week if they had been a week earlier/later they most likely would have won. Photography is like most things in life in that practice makes perfect- that also means that you the time to develop skills (something which eludes me since returning to work). Chasing that elusive shot isn't a bad thing, it just shows that you do have passion and do want to learn- nothing wrong with that:) The main thing is don't get hung up on it and as you said don't let the enjoyment lessen because you are worried about a competition.

[William]

I just take my normal shots and try to enjoy Photography, If there's a goodie I post it in the forums for reactions, If it does good ,Wait 30,60, days or so and if the theme comes up enter it , Try all different genre , I've only won with 2 landscapes , A bloody heap of seconds :( though , But Graham it's not my thought of taking an award winner , I shoot between 40-60 shots a day (Single shots) of different things , I have plenty to choose from, Guess it's the law of averages that I snag a goodie sometime :D

[Kym]

Comps are supposed to be fun and another way to set an improvement goal.
It's not like sheep stations on on the line. :D

Same deal at a Camera Club. The judge's feedback is the main issue, not winning.
As both a Camera Club member and recently qualified SAPF judge I can say the main goal of comps and judging is to help the entrants learn.

[geoffsta]

Nice question Graham. I really only enter the comps on here as a pre curser to see how I am going. In intermediate I have never got in the top 4-5 I think. But I'm not worried at all.
Sometimes I'll enter a pic that I think is fantastic, and should take it out. But it will only get around good to average.

I don't get disheartened, and why should I. I'm here to learn and enjoy my hobby. I've said this many times.... There is not much difference between Beginner & Advanced in the images that I see in the comps.

Sometimes I think many members under/over estimate their abilities. I've seen some threads back when the layered system started, were some top notch photographers say that they were not good enough for intermediate. When in fact in my opinion they should have been in advanced. Then again I think some are competition junkies, and start low so they can win a few.

So don't be worried. It's all a learning thing. And if you do worry, maybe it's becoming more than a hobby, and becoming a chore.

[ricktas]

firstly, winning a competition on AP is not easy. The site has been running for almost 6 years and we are up to just over potw300, so that is only 300 POTW winners, we have 12 monthly comps a year.

Since we introduced the AP competition system about 18 months ago, we have had over 10,000 competition entries. So in the last 18 months we have had about 80 POTW winners and 18 POTM winners, out of over 10,000 entries.

Winning is not easy.

However, If you try to hard, you are losing the enjoyment for photographer, relax, enjoy, take the shots you like taking. Then enter your best ones, and one day you might just be lucky enough to win.

[Kym]

Then enter your best ones, and one day you might just be lucky enough to win.

That is part of it for sure. Judging is subjective.
I've won at the camera club with images I did not expect to do as well as others.

[OzzieTraveller]

G'day Graham + others

Back 2000 years ago - well in the 60s, 70s & 80s when I was mad-keen in various camera clubs, I started as a "B" grader and worked my way up to "A" grade. At first I said to myself that "I would never be as good as..." and after a while, I started to get the odd 3rd, then 2nd then started to get 1st's. ie- it takes time, it takes effort BUT as Rick says "If you try too hard, you are [risking] losing the enjoyment for photography"

Also during the 70s & 80s I was heavily involved with a number of APS "National Exhibitions" - and to hear a panel of judges debate the various merits of the top few images before voting for a 'winner' ... well any of 3-4-5-6 could have got the final 'gong', but only one actually did. It's a bugga for the 4th-5th-6th who get a Highly-Commended but could have been a 1st but only if something was 1% different

Regards, Phil

[Xenedis]

Interested in your thoughts.

Well, since you asked... :-)

Personally, I am not interested in competitions any more.

I've been there and done that. I did the camera club thing. My particular club was (and probably still is) heavily focused on competitions, with two nights out of the four per month being dedicated to competitions.

I got tired of getting nowhere, and seeing the same people with the same kinds of images always get the awards. I also saw some strange judging in my time. Some judges were very good and offered insightful commentary; others were just plain terrible and made bad choices.

Over time I became very jaded and disinterested, and eventually walked away from the club scene, as well as competitions in general.

I'm not interested in playing whatever silly games it takes to win competitions. The rules (ie, what it takes to succeed) are very random -- moving goal posts. Judges ultimately have biases and inconsistencies. Judges are simply people who make decisions based on their opinions -- some informed, and some decidedly not.

The ultimate judge of my images is me, and I don't need someone else to stick an award on them (or not) to validate my images.

I enjoy my creative processes, and when I produce an image that is pleasing to my eyes, then I've already won the ultimate award.

It never ceases to amuse me that I could land an image on the cover of a major Australian photography magazine, yet never do well at finnicky camera club competitions.

An image that wins a competition isn't necessarily a great image; and conversely, an image that doesn't win a competition isn't necessarily a bad image.

To those who like competitions, want to win them, etc., I say go for it, and enjoy yourself. It's just not for me. It was a destructive experience, and at the end of the day, my photography isn't about competitions.

[Mark L]

.......do we just accept the fact that maybe our photography is not up to competition standard and move on, .....


No, I accept the fact that:-
- I entered it in an AP comp., so it must be comp. standard :),
- simply because my fellow AP voters don't think it was the best that week doesn't change what I think of my image (there's the CC forums for that),
- there's some bloody good photos, so why do anything but aspire, and
- although we all like to win every comp., really it's a bit of fun that is reward in itself.

If expectations are kept low, they'll usually be exceeded (but don't quote my on that)!

[hawko02]

Hello Graham and everyone. I just really think competitions are there to enjoy other peoples efforts and what they think is good and to promote photography. i feel it is a bit like art competitions in that you enter with something you think is good but realise everyone including judges see things as they prefer them or whatever and so I never expect to be top choice but I like to be "out there"!! I enter a few here to participate and like to see afterwards how I and others I recognise scored in the first round vote. I am always pleased if the final picture that I voted for wins. There are so many styles and also varying degreees of post processing - all enjoyable. It is part of the site. Gotta love it!!!:efelant:

[MiniFighter]

I try my best everytime i have my camera in hand, i still think my images are way off comp std though.

[HelenClaire]

Hi All,

As a newbie and having never been a member of a camera club the AP comps are a novelty for me. I just like to enter because the theme each week gives me something to focus on (oops sorry for the pun). To me it's an enjoyable challenge. The recent "dark side" theme made me think and got me out there with my camera and saw me wandering around gravestones at sunset. That didn't work so experimented with photographing in the dark which I had never done before and resulted in an entry I was really pleased with. Didn't make the final vote but who cares. It's the process that's important and if you just happen to win, hey, it's a bonus :th3:

[fess67]

Hi All,

As a newbie and having never been a member of a camera club the AP comps are a novelty for me. I just like to enter because the theme each week gives me something to focus on (oops sorry for the pun). To me it's an enjoyable challenge. The recent "dark side" theme made me think and got me out there with my camera and saw me wandering around gravestones at sunset. That didn't work so experimented with photographing in the dark which I had never done before and resulted in an entry I was really pleased with. Didn't make the final vote but who cares. It's the process that's important and if you just happen to win, hey, it's a bonus :th3:

Love your thinking and attitude.

[fess67]

Well, since you asked... :-)

Personally, I am not interested in competitions any more.

I've been there and done that. I did the camera club thing. My particular club was (and probably still is) heavily focused on competitions, with two nights out of the four per month being dedicated to competitions.

I got tired of getting nowhere, and seeing the same people with the same kinds of images always get the awards. I also saw some strange judging in my time. Some judges were very good and offered insightful commentary; others were just plain terrible and made bad choices.

Over time I became very jaded and disinterested, and eventually walked away from the club scene, as well as competitions in general.

I'm not interested in playing whatever silly games it takes to win competitions. The rules (ie, what it takes to succeed) are very random -- moving goal posts. Judges ultimately have biases and inconsistencies. Judges are simply people who make decisions based on their opinions -- some informed, and some decidedly not.

The ultimate judge of my images is me, and I don't need someone else to stick an award on them (or not) to validate my images.

I enjoy my creative processes, and when I produce an image that is pleasing to my eyes, then I've already won the ultimate award.

It never ceases to amuse me that I could land an image on the cover of a major Australian photography magazine, yet never do well at finnicky camera club competitions.

An image that wins a competition isn't necessarily a great image; and conversely, an image that doesn't win a competition isn't necessarily a bad image.

To those who like competitions, want to win them, etc., I say go for it, and enjoy yourself. It's just not for me. It was a destructive experience, and at the end of the day, my photography isn't about competitions.

I hear you and totally understand. For people like me though it is really nice to have that banner at our level of experience / expertise. I fully accept that it is a luck of the draw thing...but that is ok. This site challenges me with its quality, the previous site I was on did not. There is another site I aspire to but it is out of my league for now. It is nice to have stepping stones in confidence and this site is superb IMO at doing that having comps and awards at 3 levels.

[ranvens]

Slightly off topic, but on topic of competitions, what is the ratio of entries to voters? (is it possible to determine)?

Are there more people who vote then those who enter, other way round or somewhat even?

[ricktas]

Slightly off topic, but on topic of competitions, what is the ratio of entries to voters? (is it possible to determine)?

Are there more people who vote then those who enter, other way round or somewhat even?

Once a competition is over, you can see the voting, and how many voted.

[Lance B]

Well, since you asked... :-)

Personally, I am not interested in competitions any more.

I've been there and done that. I did the camera club thing. My particular club was (and probably still is) heavily focused on competitions, with two nights out of the four per month being dedicated to competitions.

I got tired of getting nowhere, and seeing the same people with the same kinds of images always get the awards. I also saw some strange judging in my time. Some judges were very good and offered insightful commentary; others were just plain terrible and made bad choices.

Over time I became very jaded and disinterested, and eventually walked away from the club scene, as well as competitions in general.

I'm not interested in playing whatever silly games it takes to win competitions. The rules (ie, what it takes to succeed) are very random -- moving goal posts. Judges ultimately have biases and inconsistencies. Judges are simply people who make decisions based on their opinions -- some informed, and some decidedly not.

The ultimate judge of my images is me, and I don't need someone else to stick an award on them (or not) to validate my images.

I enjoy my creative processes, and when I produce an image that is pleasing to my eyes, then I've already won the ultimate award.

It never ceases to amuse me that I could land an image on the cover of a major Australian photography magazine, yet never do well at finnicky camera club competitions.

An image that wins a competition isn't necessarily a great image; and conversely, an image that doesn't win a competition isn't necessarily a bad image.

To those who like competitions, want to win them, etc., I say go for it, and enjoy yourself. It's just not for me. It was a destructive experience, and at the end of the day, my photography isn't about competitions.

Sums it up pretty well.

That's why I am not a fan of unasked for critiquing, either.

[Seabee]

I think they are a fun motivator and that is it!

Never been in a camera club...........never will!

There is so much emphasis on winning, money, awards and degrees these days that it sucks the fun right out of the activity at times.


Expand your boundaries, find the fun and enjoy what you do because at the end of the day that is all it is about! FUN

[Steve Axford]

Comps are good - for a time. They are a challenge for you do do well at a particular type of photography - depending on what comp it is. When I was starting to learn I used comps quite a bit, but it soon became apparent that I would only learn what the comp wanted. This isn't a bad thing as long as you recognise it, but it can impede you if you think that "comp winner" = "best photo". I entered some international comps one year, and they were quite good in their selection of winners, but they were a lot of work and I didn't bother in later years.

I still enter comps occasionally, but I never take a photo with a comp in mind (though I may process one with that thought). I suppose I do it just to show myself that I can still win if I want, but I have to be very selective about what type of photo I post. I try never to fall into the trap of posting what I love. I try to post on what others love - ie from feedback of others who don't know any of the photo's context. You have to be very dispassionate about your photos to do well in comps, and try not to be disappointed if you don't do well. There is a lot of luck involved in most comps and what might win one week will come nowhere the next.

[Kerrie]

I think ( therefore I am? ) about comps like this -

Any time I see ' restaurant of the year' or ' best of ...'. , my first reaction is " as voted by who?" ESP if it's a marketing message lol.

A judgement has been made on something, and as society , we immediately accept the judges decisions as gospel, without many thoughts , and regard the winner as number one, without question. Maybe his brother is on the committee? Anyone heard of politics? Lol. Not saying that happens here! Just speaking generally. And it's just one view.


Ok. Another view, Comps are great, if it inspires you to be Your best. If other people agree, you win, it feels good, you are recognized. If they don't, it still feels good ! cos you got to complete something You were happy with. And if you learn somethiRomney from the winners entrEllie the process, well even better. I don't like to lose comps.....So I don't. I get something positive from them all. Even if that something is, try again. That's something to look forward to.

As for AP comps? Sometimes I don't vote cos they are all so good, I can't decide. Or I get passionate about the one I picked, and BOOM, it doesn't win. Aarrgghhhh.


Im starting a new thread. What, for you, makes for an outstanding / really great photo? What do you like ?

For me......interesting, beautiful, different / unique wins every time.

Be proud of what you do. Win every time !

[outstar79]

For me, and in particular the competitions I've entered on this site and others are a learning curb for me. You do get an idea of what may appeal to your audience and other photographers be it professional, amateur or otherwise. I also look to those that won and get a greater understanding of how their compositions have worked for that particular picture, their use of shutter speed, sensitivity etc have worked for them.
Competitions are a way of seeing how you stack up against others in your chosen field and it's always good to get an idea of how well you do against others and search out possible ways to improve. Is it the be all and end all in photography - definitely shot. Subjective - yes. Enjoyable - absolutely!

[Shelley]

Interesting thread. Why do I enter competitions. I don't bird to put photos in comps, I bird because I love it and sometimes I enter comps, because it's a human weakness I have, lol, wanting others to like my birds.

Its more important to enjoy what you are doing and I agree it's subjective. I like to see my shots in exhibitions and people enjoying looking at them, that gives me pleasure.

[Arg]

I remember the The Simpsons episode where someone suggests to Bart he should run for class president, but Bart is totally disinterested. Then, half way through the show, the light goes on and Bart realises it's not an exam, it's a POPULARITY CONTEST.

From that moment on he's a ball of fire and utterly unstoppable, as a different set of skills and behaviours are needed and its right up Bart's alley.

The moral of the story was that elections are not like exams, by their nature, and are neither attractive to, nor won by, the best in class. Even though they can be heaps of fun. For some.

As they say in Dragon's Den, "For that reason, I'm out". :p

[Xenedis]

Photography competitions measure people's ability to compete in photography competitions.

They aren't by any means a measure of one's ability as a photographer.

The most talented phtographers I know, and whose work I admire, don't bother with competitions, unsurprisingly.

[Steve Axford]

Few top photographers bother with competitions. Why - because they are a lot of work, particularly the good comps, and there is little reward. But, they can be good practice and they can help to hone your skills. Just because you don't do well in them doesn't mean you aren't good, but if you consistently do well in them it probably means you are at a reasonable standard.

[Arg]

And the great thing about AP comps is that they are FREE, you learn WHAT PEOPLE LIKE, and they are full of EXCELLENT PHOTOS!

[Kym]

Photography competitions measure people's ability to compete in photography competitions.
They aren't by any means a measure of one's ability as a photographer.
The most talented phtographers I know, and whose work I admire, don't bother with competitions, unsurprisingly.


Few top photographers bother with competitions. Why - because they are a lot of work, particularly the good comps, and there is little reward. But, they can be good practice and they can help to hone your skills. Just because you don't do well in them doesn't mean you aren't good, but if you consistently do well in them it probably means you are at a reasonable standard.


And the great thing about AP comps is that they are FREE, you learn WHAT PEOPLE LIKE, and they are full of EXCELLENT PHOTOS!


Which is why competitions on AP are about fun and way forward for self improvement (ditto camera clubs etc.)

Not so much on AP, but there are people who are competition junkies, but here on AP if it is not fun why do it?

I was speaking with a relatively new member on the phone last night who made a few beginners finals and won a comp,
he has progressed from a complete noob to being a competent 'tog in about 6 months, (with a lot to still learn).
He entered a lot of comps in that time as well as posting images for CC.
This case is exactly what AP is about!

[Steve Axford]

Bout sums it up.

[knumbnutz]

I tend to get bitter and twisted when I don't do well in a comp. That's me though, I dont play well with others when the red flag drops. :)
It doesnt help when you are passionate about the photo you have entered.
There has been a lot of good feedback in the thread and Steve said be dispassionate with the photos you've entered and I understand why you say that, as well as send in one's that are popular, not necessarily ones you like.
But I think that is what is potentially right and wrong with comps too, is that they can be swayed one way or the other based on personal preferrences not what is say technically a good shot.
Perhaps on the other hand, judges should be less passionate about what they like and more on what is technically correct and then add in the wow factor. I dont know how that sounds but as an example, I start my voting based on how the entered photo relates to the comp title and then on the details of the photo and finally whether it really wows me.
That will rule out some greats photos that i dont feel are properly related to the comp.
Anyway, I think the comps here are run very well and often i see some stunning photos and think - dont bother they deserve to win and normally do.
I think along with good CC and education, you will become a good tog, great ones have the creative eye and inspiration that i will never have. It is a hobby for me and if i do well and have a couple of good photos here and there I am happy, to win a comp is a bonus.

[Kym]

I tend to get bitter and twisted when I don't do well in a comp. That's me though, I dont play well with others when the red flag drops. :)
It doesnt help when you are passionate about the photo you have entered.

Some thoughts on judging...

I was judge at one of the larger clubs here is SA a few weeks back.
(There were no less then 3 APS national judges who had entered images that night, crazy really how it made me feel)

At the end of the night one of the locals button holed me complaining about his score and my comments.
As a judge you have to have a thick skin and be true to your assessment of each image.
His image was good, but not outstanding and had a few minor tech defects so I gave it a 6.
He obviously had a different expectation.
Afterwards I spoke with a couple of the other judges and they thought I had it pretty spot on. Whew!

The funniest thing was I gave the image of the night to an entry by one of the APS national judges who
is also the SAPF judging co-ordinator.
I had no idea who's entry it was, but to me it was the outstanding image of the night.

Judging is subjective!! I think the more experienced one is the more you pick an image based on both impact
and technical merit. I'm not sure less experienced people factor the technical aspect as much as they should.
Impact should always be more than technical, but I find I discount small but obvious issues more than
I did a few years ago.

End rambling... Judging is another great way to learn.

[Steve Axford]

I tend to get bitter and twisted when I don't do well in a comp. That's me though, I dont play well with others when the red flag drops. :)
It doesnt help when you are passionate about the photo you have entered.
There has been a lot of good feedback in the thread and Steve said be dispassionate with the photos you've entered and I understand why you say that, as well as send in one's that are popular, not necessarily ones you like.
But I think that is what is potentially right and wrong with comps too, is that they can be swayed one way or the other based on personal preferrences not what is say technically a good shot.
Perhaps on the other hand, judges should be less passionate about what they like and more on what is technically correct and then add in the wow factor. I dont know how that sounds but as an example, I start my voting based on how the entered photo relates to the comp title and then on the details of the photo and finally whether it really wows me.


That will rule out some greats photos that i dont feel are properly related to the comp.
Anyway, I think the comps here are run very well and often i see some stunning photos and think - dont bother they deserve to win and normally do.
I think along with good CC and education, you will become a good tog, great ones have the creative eye and inspiration that i will never have. It is a hobby for me and if i do well and have a couple of good photos here and there I am happy, to win a comp is a bonus.

The trick is to accept competitions for what they are, which is popularity contests. This is not a bad thing, but it isn't perfect either. With the comps on AP, the voters have some photographic knowledge, so there will be some bias towards technically good photos, but it just a bias. You can easily get technically poor (well, less than perfect anyway) photos that win - or very good photos that win. You have to accept that landscapes will do better than street photography and portraits will do better than underwater. That is partly the the number of entrants in those fields and partly the voters preferences, but all judges have preferences. I always get a little miffed if I lose, but really it's very minor, and you recover quite quickly. Sometimes it means that your photo wasn't quite as good as you thought, sometimes it is just blind luck and sometimes it means that you entered the wrong photo. Try to honestly decide which one and move on.
Good luck for your next attempt.

[Xenedis]

It doesnt help when you are passionate about the photo you have entered.

I'm not sure how one can be anything but passionate about the images one enters into a competition.


The trick is to accept competitions for what they are, which is popularity contests.

Or measures of people's ability to do well (or otherwise) in competitions.

[Steve Axford]

I'm not sure how one can be anything but passionate about the images one enters into a competition.

Just don't enter your favourite photo. Enter your most popular photo - popular with the judges that is. That way you are more likely to win and less likely to be miffed by failure (it wasn't your favourite image anyway).

[knumbnutz]

I totally agree.

To the same point when you are first interested in photography, you get wow'ed by brilliant colors and then you overprocessed, then you had a shot at HDR because it wow'ed you for a short while...etc etc (i think i have seen a graph on this!)
After a while your sense of what is good, bad and brilliant becomes more astute and you are out shooting you can recognise a good photo and take it. You have honed the skill and any PP you do is a fine tune and not about trying to make something that is not.

The same can be said for judging.
I look at some of the major comps in Aus and I must say I am pretty disappointed. I see one of the mags that is done through AIPP and it is written by a photographer, full of his ads and his contributors and the entry fee comps are run and judged by him. On the surface I see this as a great business, but my sceptisism wins out here. I also see the contrived nature in all the AIPP awarded images. So ..they are not for me.
I must admit i am slack to go to another camera club meet after changing states but was quite impressed at the one I went to in Melbourne although I felt underaged there ! :) The quality of person and overall professionalism shown was exceptional and the night was worth it. I need to try again in QLD.
To be fair, the internet is a hard game, humour and sensitivity is not easily conveyed and sometimes comps are the way around this or sharing the photo with trusted fellow and passionate people like you find here, it is pretty well behaved compared to other sites.
I guess that why we are here !


Some thoughts on judging...

I was judge at one of the larger clubs here is SA a few weeks back.
(There were no less then 3 APS national judges who had entered images that night, crazy really how it made me feel)

At the end of the night one of the locals button holed me complaining about his score and my comments.
As a judge you have to have a thick skin and be true to your assessment of each image.
His image was good, but not outstanding and had a few minor tech defects so I gave it a 6.
He obviously had a different expectation.
Afterwards I spoke with a couple of the other judges and they thought I had it pretty spot on. Whew!

The funniest thing was I gave the image of the night to an entry by one of the APS national judges who
is also the SAPF judging co-ordinator.
I had no idea who's entry it was, but to me it was the outstanding image of the night.

Judging is subjective!! I think the more experienced one is the more you pick an image based on both impact
and technical merit. I'm not sure less experienced people factor the technical aspect as much as they should.
Impact should always be more than technical, but I find I discount small but obvious issues more than
I did a few years ago.

End rambling... Judging is another great way to learn.

[Xenedis]

Just don't enter your favourite photo. Enter your most popular photo - popular with the judges that is. That way you are more likely to win and less likely to be miffed by failure (it wasn't your favourite image anyway).

Y'see, that's game playing, and I've no interest in playing silly games to win competitions.

I'd prefer to be out photographing and creating great images. My photography is worth far more to me than the opinion of some judge.

[Xenedis]

I must admit i am slack to go to another camera club meet after changing states but was quite impressed at the one I went to in Melbourne although I felt underaged there ! :)

What, you haven't turned 65 yet?

[Steve Axford]

Y'see, that's game playing, and I've no interest in playing silly games to win competitions.

I'd prefer to be out photographing and creating great images. My photography is worth far more to me than the opinion of some judge.

But you seem to be miffed that you don't win. You were very pleased to get a photo on a magazine cover, but that it just as much of a game. Anyway, life is a game. We play it to the best of our ability

[ricktas]

If you want to enter competitions, do so.
If you don't want to enter competitions, no one is forcing you to do so.

Each to their own, live and let live, and any other sayings that fit.

[NikonNellie]

I've never been in a camera club but I do like to enter the comps on AP - I use them as a personal challenge not as a challenge against other members. I have extended both my photographic and creative techniques when challenged with an unusual theme. It's not about the winning to me it's more about recognition by my peers that I have taken a good photo - It's not :efelant: but more :) for me.