Are 'we' just a little bit precious?

[ricktas]

In the past I started a thread about 'stay-at-home-mum's (and others) who join up on forums, or create a facebook page, where they have purchased (or been given) a DSLR and they announce the next week they are setting up a business, and what made them think photography was an easy career path. It created an interesting debate.

So now, here I go again.

Why is it that we feel so precious that we have to 'protect' this photography industry? After all, photography doesn't require a person to be registered with a government body, we don't need a university degree to practice. If someone gets a $300.00 photographer for their wedding and are happy with the photos, why should we care? After all, if they think $300.00 is a good price, they are never going to pay $1500 or more to a full-time professional, and were never likely to. So we are not missing out on income, cause we would not have got the client, no matter what.

So why should we be concerned about 'start-ups' via facebook etc, who market to the lower end of the consumer market? After all, if the photographer and client are happy, why should we give a rats? If your photography business plan is to charge $1500 for a wedding, why are you threatened by the $300.00 photographer down the road? After all, aren't your clients from a differing socio-economic group? You do know who your clients are, don't you? and you do know what sort of client you don't want, also?

[Steve Axford]

I agree, Rick. There's nothing we can do about the "bad" photographer making lots of money by luck, or the gift of the gab. But then that happens in most fields now, and perhaps always did. There's no value in always being jealous of what the other guy is getting away with. We just need to focus on what we can do and how we can achieve our own goals.

[kiwi]

no, if youre delivering crap to the public, you deserve to have shreds torn off you

[Steve Axford]

I doubt that any customer will notice those shreds you tear off.

[ricktas]

no, if youre delivering crap to the public, you deserve to have shreds torn off you

But if you and your client are happy, why should anyone else care?

[jim]

It's like prostitutes in the '60s who bitterly resented the sexual revolution. Giving it away for free, undercutting our business...

[Presotto]

I think this happens in a lot of industries. I am a hairdresser, I charge $65 for a haircut, honestly I don't even think about others around me charging less. Like Rick said, it's about knowing who your target client is. There are people, most intact in my area charging around about $20 for a haircut I am grateful they take all the clients I don't want.

I don't want a client that I have to justify or explain why they are paying me three times as much for my services. The client looking to pay $20 for a haircut is not going to pay another $200 for hair coloring a then another $100 for take home haircare.

I would say it is the same in the photography business, the person paying $300 for a wedding will probably want the images on a disk that they can get printed at Harvey Normans next 10 cents a print sale, they are not interested in shelling out for anything you are trying to offer in the way of prints or photo books etc.

And really they probably can't see the really difference between a $300 or $3000.

[ranvens]

I would probably fit in the category you speak of. To a degree, I dont claim to be a professional, nor do I claim that I can or may be able to deliver exactly what a "professional" photographer would be able to deliver. I do what I do as a passion, a hobby. As has been said above, if who I'm working for it happy with what I've done, what is the problem? Am I not entitled to charge someone with the use of my time / product?

The one thing I would offer is that if there was an obviously unhappy client, I would offer them some form of refund, etc. The main reason why I would charge someone is purely based on the use of my time.

[Presotto]

Please don't take what I said to mean that price reflects professional ism, it is purely a target market thing, something I should have said...... At the end of the day if the client is satisfied then that is really all that matters!

[ranvens]

My post wasnt directed at anyone in particular, more of a general statement.

[Jules]

Maybe people just feel a little protective of this pastime of ours? Maybe we like feeling special, being assigned the 'photographer' tag by family and friends? If every Tom, Dick and Harry take up photography, it becomes harder to stand out from the crowd...although I doubt this is restricted only to the photography field.

Just my rambling, half considered opinion.

[zollo]

First of all I disagree with the collective "we" in the question. I have no problem with a $299 dollar photographer. If they can make it work, happy days.
I sometimes do a wedding here and there. I offer packages, that vary in price, depending on the features. Therefore, customers come to me if they like what I offer at the price I offer it. Therefore, there is no direct correlation between me and the aforementioned photographer down the road. I guess I feel that the question is a bit irrelevant.

[emzlouise]

Was just thinking about this today...

I am a bit sick of always explaining (to "professionals", family members, friends who complain that "there are already so many people in the business and how am I going to ever make a name for myself in the crowd?"... etc) why I want to have photography in my life as a hobby and possible future business. I get a bit precious about it myself I guess from the other side, as someone enjoying photography and has a bit of work to do to get into the "Professional" crowd.

My point is, creating images, learning about photography and bettering my photography skills has made me happy since I was 8 years old and will continue to do so. I may not ever be the best, but I work hard (I know it's not easy) and enjoy what I do and no one can ever take that away from me.

A good thread, thanks Ricktas :)

[etherial]

Maybe we should start campaigning against camera manufacturers for building more affordable quality cameras?

[JM Tran]

But if you and your client are happy, why should anyone else care?

I think this is what it all comes down to - when we are talking about private portrait sessions, weddings etc. Private affairs with the end product solely for the client and not for the public. So yes, if that client is happy - who really cares what everyone else thinks honestly.

[Erin]

Short and simple... there is a market for the $299 photographers and there is a market for the $20,000 photographers. If I can fit somewhere in between that at some time in the future, I'm happy.

[ricktas]

Short and simple... there is a market for the $299 photographers and there is a market for the $20,000 photographers. If I can fit somewhere in between that at some time in the future, I'm happy.

But should the $20K photographer be lamenting, degrading or calling the $299 photographer out, for the fact they charge $299?

[Ezookiel]

There have to be photographers around for the people that won't ever be able to afford the truly expert professional photographers.
Some of the best are so booked up for so far ahead, they'd not have the time to fit in a cheap wedding even if they were prepared to do one really cheaply, so I guess that photographer isn't going to be hurt by the cheap one, and if you're on a really tight budget, it's better a cheap photographer than no-one at all, or start married life in debt to the wahzoo or something just to pay for a true pro. As rick says, if "everyone is happy" then why worry.

But pretty much all of us hate seeing people hurt, and my concern would be those who could be hurt when convinced to go with a cheap tog for whatever reason, then get incredibly bad results, or none. The sort that end up a story on ACA chasing some fly by night who never delivered. Those are the ones that I would be worried about. I would be pained at the thought of those who now have no record of such a big event as their wedding, because someone without a clue took the shots but didn't back them up, or worthless photos of the event because someone took the shots with totally the wrong gear and ended up with dark, blurred, unrecogniseable images. But those would be a case where NOT everyone is happy, and those aren't the ones this thread is aimed at. If a cheap tog gives results the customer is happy with, no one really loses.

[Steve Axford]

I think the point here is (correct me if I'm wrong, Rick) that we often deride people for charging inappropriate amounts (our judgement) - either too much, or in some cases too little, eg nothing. It's as if we have the right to say what others should be charging. The impression is often that we are being very precious.

[Bear Dale]

Does a $2000 a night hooker lose sleep over a $10 hooker?


Photography isn't a regulated industry and never will be. If you want a protected career, don't choose photography. If you do decide to take the plunge, don't whine on about start ups charging what ever they want to, you went into the "industry" with your eyes wide open.

I wonder if this is how "professional" lawn mowing guys feel when they see some kid putting up an ad on the local supermarket notice board advertising to cut lawns for 1/2 what they charge?

If you can only do a lawn as good as a 15 year old kid, you should only be charging what a 15 year old kid charges.

[livio]

A photography business is like any other business, in general you get what you pay for. They provide a niche if they get to much business at 300 they have to put someone else on to help with the volume. If teir quality suffers they stop getting jobs and become just another statistic. Photography in many ways is like music, you do it because you like to it drives an inner passion and if you get good enough and are business savy you make some money. If you are exceptional you might get a full time gig and make really good money. No doubt there are some cowboys that give photographers a bad name but people are generally good to work out who they can use how much they have to spend and what result they will get. Some photographers will charge 240 for four hours work and give you the images. These are great to use for a web page or something that does not require high resolution. If you require printed output you might have to spend a lot more because there is lighting, placement and composition to consider.

[Seabee]

Seriously there are too many people in this world worrying about what other people are doing, how they are doing it, why they are doing it and how much they are charging for it.
IT......is a very dangerous word, lol

I fall into the category of.....I got a camera when I was 8 and I have loved discovering the joys ever since.
I am not attached to money so my main purpose is not to recoup the costs of anything I buy or the time I spend on my passion.
I can and do charge at times...........but its neither here nor there to me.

I have a job that pays for my passion and I could probably quite easily set up a small business in 'a' genre of some sort, but thats not me.
Its the creating I like.............so no, the so called professional should not worry about my goings on and my $300 weddings, I am certainly no threat and nor would I say I am a novice.

I proudly say I am a professional enthusiast lol.
I love to create and I love people to learn...............so I will never ever be a 'secretive' photographer keeping my magic to myself.

So in reference to the threads title.....................YES, some people are waaaaay too precious.

[Presotto]

But should the $20K photographer be lamenting, degrading or calling the $299 photographer out, for the fact they charge $299?


Absolultly not!

[Wayne]

Longshots?
Zeke?

I would be interested to hear from some of the more protective professionals who often chime in, with what I would call a protectionist response to people like part-time operators, cheap operators....

[bobt]

Professionals in all sorts of fields probably feel a little cheated by technology. Those who learned a trade or craft the "old" way will always be sad that their skill is now universally available - the printing industry must be spewing about the ready availability of cheap printers and computers and specially embossed papers and so forth. That's just progress, and what was once a specialised trade now becomes something anyone can do. That's life, and we have to accept it. There will always be niche practitioners who have some sort of added "edge", and they will find their share of the market. We all need to evolve, and if technology makes our skill set less specialised, then we have to adapt, modify our skills and find new markets. Sometimes people pay for the "name", sometimes they pay for convenience and the balance between these and quality is often subjective. Caveat emptor applies to all of our decisions.

[Bear Dale]

One other thing that I ponder sometimes when reading a lot of people threads on different photography forums, is this 'need' to make money from photography. Why do so many people have this drive to make money from their hobby? Why do so many people see photography (their hobby) as some sort of cash cow?

Don't say it's a way to recoup monies spent on pricey equipment. There's many many costlier hobbies and pursuits than photography and people don't see the need to charge (even family members!) others to get some money back on their expenditure like many photographers seem to do.

Because they've 'produced' something? Honestly, you've pushed a button on an electonic handheld computer and it's captured an image......good for you (;)).

One of my other hobbies is woodturning. XXXXX amount of dollars tied up in machinery, tools and exotic wood blanks. When you've spent hours and sometimes days making something from a rough piece of wood into a beautiful and functional piece of 'art' you can really say you 'made it'. I've made hundreds of pieces and given every single one of them away. I'm not unusual, in my group of "woodies" they all give their 'art' away for free. They don't see the need to recoup on their outlay of machinery and wood, nor make money from their 'art'.

Another pastime is water skiiing and wakeboarding. My boat is worth XXXXXX (yep six figures) the thought has never crossed my mind when friends and friends of friends are being towed behind me to ask them for a cheque or better yet have a credit card point of sale device on board so that after there go they can pay me.......so that I can recoup some of my outlay.

So what is this inexplicable (at least to me) need for lots of people to charge money for photography? What stops people from being generous, even with their own family members when it comes to taking photos and giving images away?

When it comes to photography, some of us do seem a little precious.

[Seabee]

One other thing that I ponder sometimes when reading a lot of people threads on different photography forums, is this 'need' to make money from photography. Why do so many people have this drive to make money from their hobby? Why do so many people see photography (their hobby) as some sort of cash cow?

Don't say it's a way to recoup monies spent on pricey equipment. There's many many costlier hobbies and pursuits than photography and people don't see the need to charge (even family members!) others to get some money back on their expenditure like many photographers seem to do.

Because they've 'produced' something? Honestly, you've pushed a button on an electonic handheld computer and it's captured an image......good for you (;)).

One of my other hobbies is woodturning. XXXXX amount of dollars tied up in machinery, tools and exotic wood blanks. When you've spent hours and sometimes days making something from a rough piece of wood into a beautiful and functional piece of 'art' you can really say you 'made it'. I've made hundreds of pieces and given every single one of them away. I'm not unusual, in my group of "woodies" they all give their 'art' away for free. They don't see the need to recoup on their outlay of machinery and wood, nor make money from their 'art'.

Another pastime is water skiiing and wakeboarding. My boat is worth XXXXXX (yep six figures) the thought has never crossed my mind when friends and friends of friends are being towed behind me to ask them for a cheque or better yet have a credit card point of sale device on board so that after there go they can pay me.......so that I can recoup some of my outlay.

So what is this inexplicable (at least to me) need for lots of people to charge money for photography? What stops people from being generous, even with their own family members when it comes to taking photos and giving images away?

When it comes to photography, some of us do seem a little precious.


I whole heartedly agree with all that you have said!
My friends often ask when am I going to start making money from what I do..............why is it always about money grrr!!

But I do see that I get that question mainly from people that don't have a creative hobby, or sporting hobby.
In the next year I plan to spend at least $15k on equipment.............because I can and it gives me great enjoyment.

No different to any other enthusiast, I dont win anything, I dont sell anything.............my achievement is 'my self satisfaction'

[Steve Axford]

You are so right Jim. I often give stuff away and some people are amazed that I do. But why not? I could scratch out a pittance from it if I wanted, but all the extra effort and the consequent loss of circulation (people seeing my work) would not make me any happier. And all so that I could call myself - professional? Who really cares. Professional just means "I earn money from it", not "I am good at it".

[bobt]

One other thing that I ponder sometimes when reading a lot of people threads on different photography forums, is this 'need' to make money from photography. Why do so many people have this drive to make money from their hobby? Why do so many people see photography (their hobby) as some sort of cash cow?

When it comes to photography, some of us do seem a little precious.

Yup ... agree with all that. I suspect there are three sorts of members here. Those that are already professionals, in that this is their main breadwinner. Those that are "wanna be" professionals, and those who are hobbyists.
The professionals need to bear in mind that photography is the same as any other product. You make sales depending on the quality of your product and what the market will bear.
The "wanna bee's" need to realise that running a business isn't just a matter of hanging a sign up and presuming that the customers will come. Your product has to be a good one.
The hobbyists need to remember that the primary aim of a hobby is pleasure, not income.

I give my pictures away to all and sundry, mostly because I feel that it's a mutual benefit. They, as my photographic targets, are essential to my hobby - and so I reward them with some of mine. It's a win-win situation, and also helps enhance our image generally with the public. There are far too many "precious" photographers out there .....

[mcmahong]

I agree Rick. I think there is very little reason for protogs to be slamming the undercharging hobbyist. The only people that could feel entitled to be angry are the clients that have received a sub-standard product. But that is not an issue exclusive to photography. "You get what you pay for" is a motto that encompasses many industries. In photography, "What you get" is the level of experience and professionalism that is reflected in a quality product. A good photographer will have a reputation, a client base, and a level of assurance. A cheap hobbyist, although potentially capable of producing outstanding work, is unlikely going to be able to market that level of professionalism to a prospective client until they have proven themselves. So they are only appealing to the budget market, who would and should be aware that the risk is high. The only people who are entitled to cry are the disappointed clients who feel they have been ripped off by someone claiming to deliver more than they can. It happens everywhere, and that is a shame.

I definitely fall (or fell) into the category you speak of, although I believe I'm emerging into something more professional and reputable now. I've got repeat clients and can start to charge closer to an established professional fee even though it is still my side-job. However, to get started in this industry, offering free then dirt-cheap photography was the only step really available to me to get experience and to fund upgraded equipment. And it is starting to pay off, with most of my work now coming from recommendations. There will be cowboys (and cowgirls) out there that will charge for simply turning up and indiscriminately snapping the shutter of a DSLR (with equal misuse of Photoshop filters), but they will either head in 2 directions - in a positive and improved path towards a rewarding career, or into the wasteheap of wannabes that discover that they really just can't cut it and need to fight for cheap jobs.

At the end of the day, professional photographers will always have their reputation and imagery to validate their fee and secure an income. Hobbyists (edit: inexperienced photographers that charge cheaply for their work) will come and go, appealing only to a market that doesn't need high quality photography. A market professionals need not waste their time on, so really should not need to flame those that feed upon it.

[Steve Axford]

At the end of the day, professional photographers will always have their reputation and imagery to validate their fee and secure an income. Hobbyists will come and go, appealing only to a market that doesn't need high quality photography. A market professionals need not waste their time on, so really should not need to flame those that feed upon it.

Ged, I call myself a hobbyist (because money is not the objective), but I do object to your sentence "Hobbyists will come and go, appealing only to a market that doesn't need high quality photography". I will always try to provide high quality photography (and I believe, usually succeed) and I even try to stretch the boundaries of photography into areas that others have not ventured. Perhaps you could replace your term "hobbyist" as I suspect the word isn't what you really meant.

[Chris C]

Professionals in all sorts of fields probably feel a little cheated by technology. Those who learned a trade or craft the "old" way will always be sad that their skill is now universally available - the printing industry must be spewing about the ready availability of cheap printers and computers and specially embossed papers and so forth. That's just progress, and what was once a specialised trade now becomes something anyone can do. That's life, and we have to accept it. There will always be niche practitioners who have some sort of added "edge", and they will find their share of the market. We all need to evolve, and if technology makes our skill set less specialised, then we have to adapt, modify our skills and find new markets. Sometimes people pay for the "name", sometimes they pay for convenience and the balance between these and quality is often subjective. Caveat emptor applies to all of our decisions.

Well said. :th3:

I'm learning to play guitar and upstairs I have a "recording studio" with a capability that comfortably exceeds what many professional studios had only a few years ago. I can use a huge number of multitracks and change any aspect of the performance, right down to correcting the pitch of individual notes. In fact I can fake almost anything if I put the time in.

Similarly, my 'entry level' DSLR and Photoshop Elements can produce some results, with relative ease, that only a few years ago would have needed hours of work and much more professional experience.


There will always be potential customers with lower budgets and/or lower taste thresholds, so there will always be a market for cheaper wine, cheaper clothes, and cheaper photography. As always, it's up to anybody who wants to be considered as a 'capital P' Professional to demonstrate to the market what extra quality they are offering that is worth the price. And then keep doing it, for the rest of their working life.

Even though the technical advances are stellar, they usually come with their own new learning demands too (few people actually know how to use the full potential of something like Photoshop unless they've put in hundreds of hours of work and study). So there's always a place for knowledge and experience. Professionals should be able to find that place, even when it keeps shifting. If the pros do their job, amateurs like me are highly unlikely to ever catch them. The biggest thing I've learnt in the last five or six weeks is just how much I DON'T know yet! :cool:

Cheers,

Chris

[mcmahong]

One other thing that I ponder sometimes when reading a lot of people threads on different photography forums, is this 'need' to make money from photography. Why do so many people have this drive to make money from their hobby? Why do so many people see photography (their hobby) as some sort of cash cow?

Don't say it's a way to recoup monies spent on pricey equipment. There's many many costlier hobbies and pursuits than photography and people don't see the need to charge (even family members!) others to get some money back on their expenditure like many photographers seem to do.

Because they've 'produced' something? Honestly, you've pushed a button on an electonic handheld computer and it's captured an image......good for you (;)).

One of my other hobbies is woodturning. XXXXX amount of dollars tied up in machinery, tools and exotic wood blanks. When you've spent hours and sometimes days making something from a rough piece of wood into a beautiful and functional piece of 'art' you can really say you 'made it'. I've made hundreds of pieces and given every single one of them away. I'm not unusual, in my group of "woodies" they all give their 'art' away for free. They don't see the need to recoup on their outlay of machinery and wood, nor make money from their 'art'.

Another pastime is water skiiing and wakeboarding. My boat is worth XXXXXX (yep six figures) the thought has never crossed my mind when friends and friends of friends are being towed behind me to ask them for a cheque or better yet have a credit card point of sale device on board so that after there go they can pay me.......so that I can recoup some of my outlay.

So what is this inexplicable (at least to me) need for lots of people to charge money for photography? What stops people from being generous, even with their own family members when it comes to taking photos and giving images away?

When it comes to photography, some of us do seem a little precious.

I wish photography was a 'cash cow'!

I agree with you, getting paid shouldn't be a compelling and inevitable outcome of a hobby, but for a few it is. I have to say, I think there is an aspect here which is less black and white then what you've described... which is that most hobby photographers do it for fun and for free, but some allow for the occasional bit of compensation when they are asked to do a small job which is usually something not normally part of their hobby. For me, that includes things like corporate headshots, products, or events. I can appreciate that you would never charge for your woodturning or waterskiing, but if a stranger asked you to make 20 stock-standard table legs for them, or an activity group wanted to hire your boat and driving skills every Saturday for a month, you would probably either say "no" or accept their offer for payment. It's unlikely you would do it for free.

I don't charge for family portraits or anything for friends and family, but I do get approached to do "boring" photography. The studio click and print kind of stuff (I've generalised greatly there, but hopefully you get my point). At the end of the day if you can get a few dollars for what you do and therefore subsidise the next lens, then why not? I went down that road, and it has helped me buy more equipment (I honestly could not afford to otherwise!). Horses for courses, I guess.

[mcmahong]

Ged, I call myself a hobbyist (because money is not the objective), but I do object to your sentence "Hobbyists will come and go, appealing only to a market that doesn't need high quality photography". I will always try to provide high quality photography (and I believe, usually succeed) and I even try to stretch the boundaries of photography into areas that others have not ventured. Perhaps you could replace your term "hobbyist" as I suspect the word isn't what you really meant.

My deepest apologies, Steve. You are right, I don't mean hobbyist. I really meant to refer to those start-up photographers that try to scratch out some payment for using a DSLR. Poor generalisation on my behalf.
I'm one of those people, but largely consider myself a hobbyist too.

[I @ M]

I'm wondering what all the posters here that are doing it for a hobby and telling those that do it for a living to "get with the times " would be saying if they had to rely on photography for an income.

It aint a crime to have photography as a hobby and it is no more a crime to have photography as a full time source of income.

The way I see it is that all the photographers that I know and do it for a living love their job.
Many of them I feel would be much wealthier people earning a salary in another field ( many photographers I know hold qualifications in such other fields ) whilst I suspect that many of the ones that photograph as a hobby use it as a form of relaxation to escape their day jobs.

[Steve Axford]

Ged,
As I wrote my response I did start to think that. Apology accepted.
If I was professional, I would be doing somewhat different things with my photography, but I would be no more dedicated to quality than I am now. Unfortunately, professional tends to imply - trained, skill, good at, etc - in our society, and anyone can call themselves a professional photographer. And of course lots who are not skilled, trained or good at, do - just because it makes them sound good. Nothing we can do about that.

[Steve Axford]

I'm wondering what all the posters here that are doing it for a hobby and telling those that do it for a living to "get with the times " would be saying if they had to rely on photography for an income.
.

I'd be saying that to myself. What choice would I have??? You either sink or swim. Living in a pretend world just doesn't work for very long.

[Seabee]

I'm wondering what all the posters here that are doing it for a hobby and telling those that do it for a living to "get with the times " would be saying if they had to rely on photography for an income.

It aint a crime to have photography as a hobby and it is no more a crime to have photography as a full time source of income.

The way I see it is that all the photographers that I know and do it for a living love their job.

Many of them I feel would be much wealthier people earning a salary in another field ( many photographers I know hold qualifications in such other fields ) whilst I suspect that many of the ones that photograph as a hobby use it as a form of relaxation to escape their day jobs.


Whatever income we choose to rely on to live , is still a 'choice'
We have choices in every direction we head...............The point is to 'own' your choice and never be negative towards others.
We all have our reasons for doing what we do..........the trick is to gleen as many positives out of it as we can.

Money can be a negative driving force for some.........the abundance comes from the heart and the enjoyment of what we do.
Those that are succeeding in their chosen fields are doing so because they simply 'love' what they do.

Thats the whole point..........when we do something because we love it, we are not worried about the comings and goings of others in the same field.
We have trust in oursleve and our own abilities.

[Bear Dale]

I'm wondering what all the posters here that are doing it for a hobby and telling those that do it for a living to "get with the times " would be saying if they had to rely on photography for an income.




I'd probably be looking for another job and getting other qualifications, because I'd be seeing the writing on the wall and knowing what I know now about how much it costs to own a home, raise a family, pay for private education, braces, private medical insurance, cars, holiday home, extensions etc etc etc I'd be thinking that it's going to be a very difficult road in the professional photography industry to support that lifestyle as the steam roller of change has in no way finished yet.


I certainly wouldn't be buying a bookstore (because I love reading) nor would I be buying a DVD/Video rental store (because I love watching movies) because these are two other "industries" that have been affected and will continue to be affected by changing times.

One of my closest friends ran a mini lab for over 20+ years. The two in my town have closed up in the last 6 months, one had been there for 20 years as well and the other around 15 years ...... anyone want to open one of them up now?

Another friend worked for New Limited his whole career. You wouldn't believe his portfolios. The access to the people he had for over 30+ years is just absolutely mind blowing. I've spent hours and hours just looking at his portfolios. The photography dept was huge at News Limited, 24 hours a day 7 days a week. A huge arsenal of equipment to choose from, a mobile darkroom that would follow the 'togs around the big newsworthy events. Now thanks to digital it's virtually unrecognizable he says if he drops in to say hello to 1 or 2 colleagues who haven't taken their golden handshake yet.

[I @ M]

Whatever income we choose to rely on to live , is still a 'choice'

Sorry Cindy, I can't totally subscribe to that theory as there are a hell of a lot of people that have been denied many things that would have given them the ability to make a "choice" about their work situation and are simply doing the job they have in order to put food in their ( and quite often their childrens ) mouths.


We have choices in every direction we head...............The point is to 'own' your choice and never be negative towards others.

I totally agree that people shouldn't be negative towards others especially as far as photography goes, trouble is that negativety comes from both full time photographers as well as the hobbyist / amateur directed towards each other. There are many reasons for that negativity, not just money.


Money can be a negative driving force for some.........the abundance comes from the heart and the enjoyment of what we do.
Those that are succeeding in their chosen fields are doing so because they simply 'love' what they do.

Absolutely!!! I knew a person that became a very successful real estate salesperson and openly admitted that they loved the money but hated their lifestyle of deception that the job entailed. They died young and wealthy.


Thats the whole point..........when we do something because we love it, we are not worried about the comings and goings of others in the same field.
We have trust in oursleve and our own abilities.

No point being in business, having trust in ones self and ones abilities and never worrying about what anybody else is doing, specially if you want to eat on a daily basis.
That applies to any field really, it aint photography exclusive.

[Art Vandelay]

As much as it's everyones right to charge as they please, I never really understand people trying to be commercial about their photography and being cheap, but that's coming from a business background and seeing at a glance that the figures would never stack up to make a decent living from, let alone justify the time spent.

Personally, as a hobbyist who sells occasionally & a few contra deals in place I only have 2 prices. Free, or full fare. Never cheap.

*Free to family, friends & members of couple of sporting clubs I'm part of ...or others if I feel like it & I know it's appreciated.

*Full fare to anyone else or for commercial use - If someones making a dollar from my work then I need my cut as well.

Just being cheap to get odd jobs doesn't make much sense, either for your personal self esteem or from a commercial standpoint.

[Tommo1965]

Does a $2000 a night hooker lose sleep over a $10 hooker?


Photography isn't a regulated industry and never will be. If you want a protected career, don't choose photography. If you do decide to take the plunge, don't whine on about start ups charging what ever they want to, you went into the "industry" with your eyes wide open.

I wonder if this is how "professional" lawn mowing guys feel when they see some kid putting up an ad on the local supermarket notice board advertising to cut lawns for 1/2 what they charge?

If you can only do a lawn as good as a 15 year old kid, you should only be charging what a 15 year old kid charges.

yes but does the 15 year old kid have a franchise fee to consider , or mortage ?

lawning mowing is a bit of a unskilled job so most people can do it...taking good professional images is another matter

Rick

yes you should care...I don't operate in the photography industry , but as a tradesman that has spent his past 30 years of working life building up a skill set and business that could be severely affected by cowboys buggering it up for the pros..then yes I can see how a so called photographer {cowboy} that does a wedding for $300 would affect the "Tradesmen" in the photography industry ....it waters the rest of you down....people expectation lower as does their expectation of what they should be charged.

I personally think that any trade that charges for skilled services should be licensed by a regulatory board of any particular industry ...crikey in WA even painters are licensed and if you have a issue with one..you take them to the painters Rego ...same with builders, plumbers and sparkies..and soon to be implemented across all the remaining trades..and so it should be..to control quality and provide a avenue for disgruntled client to resolve differences .

a quality pro has spent years perfecting their trade and costs that are associated with running a business need to be paid for ..a mum or dad for that matter that is charging cash for a sideline can do it cheaper {as with the 15 year old lawnmower} because they have zero overheads and if they do bugger it up..it wont affect their 9-5 mortgage paying job..

for the lower income earners that cant afford real pro..to pay for a cowboy is darn silly....Id expect disappointment all round ..best to get uncle Fred for free at least his crap images arnt paid for

[rellik666]

There will always be people that appreciate quality and are prepared to pay for it.

There will always be people that like the look/way something is done over another look/way something is done.

There will always be people that want an Brand over a no-name.

There will always be people that want something for the lowest possible price.

The only problem that is out there now and will continue to get worse is noise. How do you (whatever you are) stand out from the crowd? Barriers to entry are lower then they ever have been.

In answers to Rick's question, I think people in general are precious about things they have investment in. Sometimes it is a bit of jealousy, that someone has done something you haven't had the drive to do/ inclination/money/time whatever so lets drag them down.

But I with Jim, photography is a hobby to me, one of many, but it is the only one I see people constantly having the need to make money from. Well done to you if you have, but I do it for me.

And to all those Photography Businesses, good on you for doing what you want to do. Good Luck to you.

[Erin]

But should the $20K photographer be lamenting, degrading or calling the $299 photographer out, for the fact they charge $299?

Honestly, I don't think they should be. Like I said, there are markets for both. Guaranteed the $20K photographer would NOT want to deal with the $299 client just as much as the $299 client wouldn't want to deal with the $20K photographer. I think that's something that also needs to be considered as a major part of the equation - people forget about the clients. THEY are the ones spending the money. :)

What sort of clientel are you aiming for and marketing towards?

For example, I doubt Jerry Ghionis is marketing towards those with a tight budget of $5000-$10,000 for their wedding. I'd say with the big bucks get his business - and he's worth it.

I've got friends who don't show up for a wedding for less than a couple thousand, and that's before they even pick up a camera. They have pride in what they do and are happy not to compromise their work because some client wants to go cheap. They will happily point them in the direction of someone who will do it cheaply or simply not take the client. It's not worth it to them. Naturally, if a cheap photographer does a great job and gives wonderful results, all's well and good... though they will crawl up the price ladder just like every talented photographer before them. It's human nature. There's a reason why the expensive ones are good. LOL

[Kerrie]

Hhmmm


Can someone explain to me what a $20,000 photographer could do better than, oh, say, a $10,000 photographer ? I know 299 versus 20,000 is an understood difference in skill, based on price and portfolio, and probably experience ......but when it gets up there in the thousands,
.... What's the real point of difference at that level?

[zollo]

lets have some fun with that question...

a $20000 photographer will almost definitely be using a hasselblad or phase one. who cares? well those who drive a ferrari instead of a 325i will care. ie the customer who wants a $20000 photographer will
both will probably achieve the same result, but its how the result is achieved ;)

[ricktas]

What's the difference between a Rolex and a Timex? A Timex is for you to tell the time by, a Rolex is for you to show others the time.

While there is a market (at any price point) there will be those willing to fulfill that market. Demand and Supply! I cannot see the Queen commissioning a $299.00 photographer

[Bear Dale]

How many weeks a year does an Aussie $20,000 a pop wedding photographer have booked?

[Bear Dale]

Maybe "precious" photographers are just precocious ;)

[Art Vandelay]

At those pricing levels you're paying a premium similar to a desirable piece of art, or work by a particular artist.

Whether most of us see value in that doesn't really matter. As long as those paying are happy :)

And kudos to those who command those prices. :th3:

[JayR]

Only if these kinds of people bring the reputation of 'photographers' down.
Kit lens & DSLR does not equal 'photographer' capable of providing a paid service.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjBSIvg3pjc

[Xenedis]

One other thing that I ponder sometimes when reading a lot of people threads on different photography forums, is this 'need' to make money from photography. Why do so many people have this drive to make money from their hobby? Why do so many people see photography (their hobby) as some sort of cash cow?

That's a very good question, and I think your point is closely related to the thread Rick started about why people have some sort of perception that it's easy to make money from photography.

In my opinion, the best way to totally destroy a hobby about which one is passionate, is to try to turn it into a career.

It's one of the reasons why I will not operate as a photographer for a living, or do any commercial work or selling any more.

My photography is for me. I shoot what I want, when I want, how I want. The most demanding client I have is myself, and if I don't get the image I want, the worst problem I face is disappointment.

I can understand why many long-established photographers are incensed at the Johnny-come-latelys who buy an entry-level DSLR kit and all of a sudden are 'professional wedding photographers' with a Facebook presence (<scoff>, <chortle>) potentially under-cutting them and devaluing photography; but on the other hand, in just about any industry there is the little battler catering for the budget end of town, and there is the big-name photographer with a big budget and big clients, serving a completely different market.

Australia is a country which prides itself on the little guy getting out there and having a go.

People should have the freedom to decide to do that, but if they do, then they should know what's involved and not be deluded into thinking they can do this merely because a few people have told them they have nice images, or that they should do it for a living.

These guys simply cannot compete in the higher-end markets (in the beginning, at least), so photographers who do operate in that environment should not regard them as any kind of threat.

IMO, people should do whatever it is they do and concentrate on being good at it within their market segment, whilst being aware of what's happening around them, but not fretting about it.

[sunny6teen]

agreed. each photographer is catering to different clientele. neither tog should be concerned about the other.
however...it's the client that should be concerned.
does the client recognise the difference? is the client aware that the trade is not regulated? what's aipp?
is it client's responsibilty to research all of this?

my website clearly states that I like to portray the essential unreality of the human condition leading to a hegemony of distress in a chaos of the new undefined.
meaning? ... the bride's head is out of frame in all of the wedding shots. thank you for choosing El Budgeto Fotografico.

the previous posts are assuming that the client is happy with the results. what if they're not?

[kiwi]

As I've said probably a million times before, ignore cheap, it's bad I get annoyed at, so bad that they cant focus, expose or manage colour that have just picked up a DSLR then two months later are quite bluntly ripping potential clients off free or $500 or whatever. They are usually deluded and over confident to the point of blind. I think a) these dipsticks should get a quick reality check from someone other than their sycophantic and adoring family and b) their "clients" should be encouraged to look for someone that's still cheap but actually good. And I've seen good togs doing weddings for $700 as an example.

There have been many circumstances here where a newbie gets sucked into doing a wedding and comes on asking what lens they should use etc, no backup gear, no image backup strategy, no idea....do you say "go for gold" or do you say "just stop"

Can you be bothered ? Not often. You could spend your whole life on a futile crusade against faux photographers, and for all the reasons listed above, usually a waste of time...every so often though given an opportunity a reality check is necessary, especially faced with an obvious train crash


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Chris C]

Photography isn't a regulated industry and never will be. If you want a protected career, don't choose photography. If you do decide to take the plunge, don't whine on about start ups charging what ever they want to, you went into the "industry" with your eyes wide open.



True Jim. Whining does seem a bit of a waste of time and forum space. :)


But Internet Whining is one of the fastest growing sports on the plant, so why should Photography be any exception?

The rules of IW (which may well be included in the next Olympics as a demonstration sport) are quite simple:



1. The participants, possibly embittered by their own mediocre performance and lack of recognition, shall select a target (either real or invented) and heap scorn on their alleged shortcomings.

2. They shall invite others to take kicks at the 'straw man' (or woman), and the thread with the most whiny posts wins.

3. In the event of the OP being told to "get a life", "grow up" or "suck it up princess" they shall not buckle, flounce off blushing, or in any way modify their original position.

4. Any change of heart (known as "watering the whine") shall result in immediate disqualification.



Over-performing Internet Whiners tend to look like the forum losers, so it's best done in moderation.


Unfortunately, most of us succumb now and then.... ;)


Cheers, (If being cheery still means anything in this twisted modern world, where traditional values have....blah, whine, blah, blah.....)

Chris

[Lance B]

Seriously there are too many people in this world worrying about what other people are doing, how they are doing it, why they are doing it and how much they are charging for it.

How true.

[Lance B]

But should the $20K photographer be lamenting, degrading or calling the $299 photographer out, for the fact they charge $299?

Pretty simple, really. A couple of observations.

If the $20k photographer can justify his expense, then why should he care about the $299 photog. If the $299 photographer can give the same results as the $20k guy, then the $20k guy should be nervous! It's not all that different from comparing a high end Merc with a lowly Kia, they both get you where you're going, but one does it in style and comfort and the other just costs alot! ;) :lol:

The only thing I would be concerned about with the $299 photographer and letting him/her loose on my wedding would be that he/she stuffs it up and I have no photos of the big day. Generally the higher cost photogs have insurance to cover any chance of being sued due to lost wediing photos. However, the pro would have back up plans and bodies and cards and back up photographers in case they get sick etc to cover such events, whereas the low end guy just takes off and you've got diddly squat.

This is the reason why we have professions and profesional bodies that are supposed to have standards that they have to adhere to so as the public do not get ripped off. Electrical trades have certificates to show that they know what they are doing so we don't get electrocuted or they don't burn down a house, same goes for plumbers, carpenters, doctors, dentists and any other profession you care to name.

[stuey]

My 2 cents worth,

I have read this thread with great intrest. What i am interested in is -

1. How many actual Full time sole income employed photographers are actually here on this forum, and what are their thoughts on the matter.

2. Dont we as consumers sometimes seek out the cheapest deal for eg, petrol, haircuts, camera equipment etc
and then we go and complain when someone in this industry offers a cheap service.

3. At the end of the day if the client is happy why should we waste our time caring who charges what for a service.
If at the end of the day the client is happy isnt that what matters the most. And if their not well then lesson learnt perhaps.

4. Does any one remember when Hyundai and Kia (1992?) first brought out sub $10K priced cars and how Holden and Ford bitched and wined over the quality and that it would destroy the market.... there seems to be a lot of holden and fords still being sold and driven...

5. How many part timers / hobbists / casuals / weekend warriors (call them what you like - people that have full time paying employment else where) that are members here have done free shoots on so called spec, sent free images to papers/magazines etc just to get a so called photo credit ( as that is what really helps promote your business apparently ), or done TFP pictures with models / kids / families who are looking to increase their modeling port folios ( with out any charge what so ever ). ??

6. I see on here from time to time people winging and whining that the industry is dead, going backwards, and not much work (fashion/magazines/sport) yet after having a back of house tour of the Skilled park stadium on Sat night with 20 other lucky coupon winners, we got to visit the media centre and photographers office under the stadium. Chatting with the full time toggs in their they all complained they are actually to busy both editorially and in their own private photography businesses... So the question i ask on this topic is - Why are they so busy full time and we arnt ??? What are they doing better and bigger then the majority of us... I know for a fact they dont charge peanuts or offer to do jobs for free at all or ( to do it for free for receiving a media pass in return as they all complained about some ethics of some photographers in QLD). Perhaps longshots could answer this as he always seems busy and is a full time professional.

At the end of the day this industry is changing on a daily rate, if you want to be a full time photographer you need to be able to move sideways and change with such a fluid industry otherwise you will be left behind.. Maybe we need as a group to stop winging about what other people are offering eg $299 for a wedding and concentrate more on improving our own skills (photography / business ) to further our own careers/income/business practices.

6. And i dont think name calling is helping our cause one bit, In fact it makes us look idiots and sometimes can be seen as a distraction from what we think our own ability may be but isnt really...

So shouldnt it be " Buyer beware" in the end.... if your happy paying $299 or $20K its their decision and not ours to whine over and call names and belittle people.

My thoughts only

Stu

[I @ M]

I have read this thread with great intrest. What i am interested in is -

1. How many actual Full time sole income employed photographers are actually here on this forum, and what are their thoughts on the matter.



Maybe we had better run another poll this year to get some more current figures.

This thread started in Sept. 2010 goes someway to answering your question Stu.

http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?66595-Who-earns-their-livelihood-photographing

[mikew09]

Hmmm - interesting discussion. I really dont see it being any different to any other services / product market. In any business you need to know who you are marketing too and if the cheaper guys are getting your work well maybe your business is targeting the wrong market.

Friends of my daughter who have seen my wedding photos I did take at her wedding have asked me to do two weddings now but I declined both and just offered recommendations and an option to do add-hoc second shoot if the photographer was comfortable with it (both cases NOT).

My reasoning - sure I would be cheap but on such a special day I think it very important to get the wedding shoot right and with the cost of a good photographer that can provide portfolio etc the chances are good. On one occasion they took my advise and on another they chose a full time but very cheap photographer :-(. Result, you get what you pay for :-)

Hence, good marketing, reputation, re-pour with the customer and the correct target market for the product you are offering should equate to a productive business. I have run a business in the past and the only eqation you cant factor for is pure economics - demand an supply. No demand - no work. Like I said - MARKETING

[stuey]

Maybe we had better run another poll this year to get some more current figures.

This thread started in Sept. 2010 goes someway to answering your question Stu.

http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?66595-Who-earns-their-livelihood-photographing

Thanks Andrew, It just makes me wonder who the loudest complainers of this truly are - Full time professionals or is it the "Weekend warriors/hobbyists/part timers/casuals (what ever you want to call them)

[mcmahong]

5. How many part timers / hobbists / casuals / weekend warriors (call them what you like - people that have full time paying employment else where) that are members here have done free shoots on so called spec, sent free images to papers/magazines etc just to get a so called photo credit ( as that is what really helps promote your business apparently ), or done TFP pictures with models / kids / families who are looking to increase their modeling port folios ( with out any charge what so ever ). ??

Stu

Ok my story. That was me 2 years ago. Mainly because I didn't know where to start. I'm a single Dad with 2 kids and a full-time job (not photography). I've always loved photography and have been convinced by others to get "into it" more. I took endless photos of my own kids, and then photos of friend's kids. Then a friend of a friend asked me to take photos of their kids (mothers groups can be gossipy and competitive!) but insisted on paying me. The results were pretty good, so I wanted more practice and offered free shoots to 9 of my parent-friends, and ALL accepted (I was hoping for 3 or 4). So a dozen or so photoshoots later, I found that I had a knack for it - not just the photography part, but actually connecting with the kids and the parents and getting them to feel comfortable and natural in front of the lens. Then I was referred to a sports photography company that was recruiting freelancers for a fun run. Then my brother-in-law asked for some corporate headshots for his company, and he slipped me $100 for the effort. Then another friend wanted a tog for her jewellery exhibition, and another mother-friend was starting an invitation design business. Then I stumbled upon a girl wanting to start a model portfolio, so I did a TFP. Finally, a colleague at work got married and wasn't even going to have a photographer, but eventually asked if I was interested and only wanted "1 or 2 half-decent" shots, which will probably remain the easiest specification for a wedding ever! But I photo-journalism-ed the whole thing, and was happy with the outcome. So my experience was growing but without really trying too hard. It became inevitable that I would start to charge money, as I was drifting away from the creative art side of photography and down the commercial lines. So I secured an ABN, invested in some better glass, insurance, etc. Now, I have more wedding bookings, regular commerical work, a lot of mothers group friends who continue to have babies, and their friends, and so on. Bottom line is a portfolio, built on free to cheap photography - but not because I want to be a cowboy, but because it was a great way to immerse in the industry, even for a while, and find what it was that I liked and what I was good at. Now I'm at the point where I want to focus my niche into an area that I prefer and work on that skill. Probably never to be a career photographer (I'm too risk-averse for that), but a chance to do something fascinating and different to my regular job.

I have no issue with the way I've built experience. I haven't had an unhappy client yet, so maybe I was underselling myself. But I've now got so much more experience than I ever could have imagined, and am starting to truly understand both my limits and my potential. Something I may not have ever realised if I just stuck to photographing jetties at sunrise.

And the whole time I've never let go of the reason I took up photography. To be creative and enjoy making images. The main difference is that now I understand my equipment better and can actually afford those extra lenses to pursue my hobby. With the 5DMkIII out, maybe I should revise my fees :)

[I @ M]

Ok my story. ----- Huge Snip ------ With the 5DMkIII out, maybe I should revise my fees :)

Excellent. :th3: :th3:

Go forth and conquer Ged.

[Simont81]

I applaud the sentiment expressed throughout this entire thread. It's hard to know what side of the fence to stand on when you're starting out, and its amazing how emotive the discussions can get. I'm just starting out photographically speaking, but have enough life experience to know that at times you just have to put yourself out there regardless of the naysayers, and if what you do works for you and your clients, you are doing just fine. There are no facts, and negativity breeds negativity, so I think any thread which recommends less judging of other photographers and more positivity can only be a good thing.

[Kelz1990]

I couldn't agree more with this post. :)