Neutral Density Filter

[rbudiardjo]

Hi,

I would like to get ND filters but I am not sure which brand to get and which spec I should get. Should I get full ND filter or graduated filter? I'd like to get a good one since I try to avoid having a stack of filters/lens that I won't use in the future. Can anybody give me some suggestions?

Thanks a lot :)

[ricktas]

what are you going to use them for> ND grads are to balance the difference between the light intensity (say a bright sky against a dark ground). ND's just reduce the light to the sensor fully (good for slow shutter speed waterfall shots etc).

The Cokin P system is a good starting point.

[hoffy]

SNAP.....just got back from 3 days holidays & this was going to be my first question as well!!

I was trying to do wet rocks against a sunset & was screaming out for ND! (I was using a Cokin Sunset graduated filter though!) Would I be correct in saying that a graduated would have been the best option? If so, what strength? I notice that Cokin do a few gradiated in different styles.

[ricktas]

get the set...hehe. _ ive got ND2 / ND4 / ND8. The one you use depends on how strong the variance in brightness is between the ground and the sky (or you can stack em too)

I really wish Cokin would bring out one that is dark in the middle and fades out to the top and bottom edges though, cause if the sun is near the horizon that is the bit that needs most of the ND strength.

[arthurking83]

Hey Rick.. have you checked out SingRay's line of reverse GND's?

singh-ray (http://www.singh-ray.com/grndgrads.html)

scroll down to the 'Daryl Benson' section.

I've been contemplating at least a couple of their filters.. but haven't committed yet only becasue I'm not sure if I'm going to stick with the Cokin P size or upgrade to the Z-Pro.
Singray's are damned expensive filters but reputed to be of high quality.

[ricktas]

Yeah I have AK, you are right about the $$, but their reputation certainly seems to warrant.justify the price at times.

One day i will probably get myself one of those, if Cokin dont bring out one.

[rbudiardjo]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the advice. :) I'd like to use them for the landscape photo for both objects. I read in one of the websites saying that Cokin filter is not true neutral but I don't know what it means. Does it mean that the end colour is not good?

Yeah, I've looked at the price of the other brands and they are very costly :(

[ricktas]

re Cokin, yeah they appear not to be true neutral. If you stack them, under certain conditions, you can see a magenta colour cast in your skies (or whatever is covered by the stacked ND's). It is not apparent all the time, but appears occasionally.

Lee filters do not have this happen.

It isnt a major issue and can be recitified in PS fairly easily.

[rbudiardjo]

thanks a lot rick!

any suggestion where the cheapest place is to get the filters?

[ricktas]

www.vanbar.com.au are fairly good, Their website takes a bit of negotiating though.

[hoffy]

http://www.filtershop.com.au/

They have a cracking range of filters of all brands

[znelbok]

Excellent timing

After yesterdays day out to get some practise, the waterfall was too bright for a good exposure. I new the filter needed, but this has just clarified what I was thinking and given some great insight to other options and where to buy from.

Thanks Guys

Mick

[Norton]

if you can wait get the best, a singh-ray variable contrast is on my list.

[rbudiardjo]

thank you guys :D

need to ask another question... my brain gets tangled now :p

does Cokin GND filter come with hard and soft edges? I've been browsing the website yesterday and found one GND that says ND8 soft. Does it mean it has soft edge? or do all GND filters from Cokin have soft transition?

thanks heaps for your help :)

[mpot]

(whoops...double post - why can't I delete my own posts?)

[mpot]

does Cokin GND filter come with hard and soft edges? I've been browsing the website yesterday and found one GND that says ND8 soft. Does it mean it has soft edge? or do all GND filters from Cokin have soft transition?

They have grad filters with hard edges and soft edges (ie, the transition from ND to clear).

Cheers,
Martin.

[rbudiardjo]

oh ok... thanks :) I'll ask the seller first before placing the order.

[znelbok]

If I go for a ND filter (non graduated), is the normal screw on type OK to use, or am I better off getting a Cokin type so that when and if I get a graduated filter its suitable for both?

Are there any drawbacks to either?

Mick

[ricktas]

screw on is good, remembering that it will only fit lenses with the same diameter thread. You can get step up/down rings, but these become a bit less effective at times.

It really depends on whether you think that in the future you might want to get creative, buying things like graduated blue/ tabacco and others, if thats the case, then a cokin system would be good. If you are investing in a lifetime of photography, maybe the cokin system straight off means you can get additional filters etc anytime.

But in the end it is really your choice.

[rbudiardjo]

hi rick, really good points. thanks :D

[znelbok]

Thanks everyone

I ordered a cokin kit for the Nikon DSLR today (found a kit on the cokin website that comes with holder, adapter and a filter) and will get the ND4 with it when I pick it up.

I worked out to be much cheaper to use this system then to go with the screw in type from say Hoya, especially if I get a lens of a different diameter down the track. Two ND screw ins came to the same price as two P series filters and the holder kit (roughly anyway).

I'll look at the graduated soon, once I get this going and sorted out.

Mick

[rbudiardjo]

I'm still in the middle of decision which one to get whether to get a set of Cokin filters or get from a good quality brand like Singh-Ray/Lee but only selective types.

Which ND or GND filter that is used the most? I've read in some forums, some said ND4 (0.6) but some said ND8 (0.9). Some said ND2 is quite useless. Is ND 8 mainly used in the extreme brightness like at the snowy area? If so, it wouldn't be applicable for me since I haven't been to snowy area and not seeing any frequent travel to that area either :D

Thanks for the help :)

[reaction]

hm. what's a good price for ND filters?

ND2 feels useless to me, I mean unless to stack onto a set of 2,4,8
How does it add if you do that tho?

What brands are known 'good' and 'bad'?
Someone said they didn't like Hoya for some reason.

[Bunyip]

After yesterdays day out to get some practise, the waterfall was too bright for a good exposure...

Yeah, I've been dying to try shooting those beach scenes where the wash of the water over the rocks creates a misty look.

The real pain of the ND filter thing is when you have lenses of different filter widths, and you don't know for certain which lens you'll want to use the filter with.

[SSSchwing]

Yeah, I've been dying to try shooting those beach scenes where the wash of the water over the rocks creates a misty look.

The real pain of the ND filter thing is when you have lenses of different filter widths, and you don't know for certain which lens you'll want to use the filter with.

you can get different ring adapters for the various lenses you have. they aren't very expensive and unless you're using it on a wide angle lens, you shouldn't have any issues with the filters.

[ricktas]

Yeah, I've been dying to try shooting those beach scenes where the wash of the water over the rocks creates a misty look.

The real pain of the ND filter thing is when you have lenses of different filter widths, and you don't know for certain which lens you'll want to use the filter with.

The wash over rocks shots are often done late in the evening, well after sunset. Doing them at 10.30 pm or later, you dont need ND's.

[ricktas]

The Cokin P system is a good starter kit. Be aware that if you like wide-angle shots, then at 10..11..12 mm the filter holder is visible in your shot (vignettes). The Cokin Z-Pro system is a bigger system and works well, but the filters are more expensive. The Cokin Z-Pro system is also a standard 100mm filter system, so the better quality filters, like LEE, will work with it.

Cokin filters have a known issue where if you stack them, under certain light conditions, a magenta tone is visible in your photos. Correctable in PP, but it is there. I have seen it only a few times now with my Cokin Z-Pro system, and when it happens it is a very pronounced magenta toning.

[Allann]

Here is an example of what happens, it's a friends image on flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dgt0011/2655386100/), asked me to link to it instead of using the image in the post (fair enough too).

[ricktas]

Here is an example of what happens, it's a friends image on flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dgt0011/2655386100/), asked me to link to it instead of using the image in the post (fair enough too).

Good move, cause posting someone elses photo direct to AP brings copyright issues into play. Members should only ever post their own work.

[reaction]

Are no brand really bad then? I'd imagine a severe cast.

HMC Hoyas go for abt 40-60 each, I'd only use on my 16-85.
Duno whether to go for 'thin' ones, which cost 1.5-2x but may be better for stacking.

[TOM]

For ND filters, I would recommend B+W. They are the best on the market and should last a lifetime. Having said that, the Singh Ray variable ND filter looks appealing, even if the price isn't.

For GND, I would recommend that you start with Cokin but be aware that these are not a long term purchase of the calibre of the B+W. They will scratch, no matter how well you look after them. These scratches may not effect image quality but over time, new filters will likely be required. But the Cokin is certainly a good starting point and will allow you to evaluate what type you use more often. You may then wish to graduate ot the Singh Ray. The holders are cheap, however you will most likely end up just holding them in front of the lens, or using blue-tac to hold them.

[ricktas]

iI have found that the Cokin Z-Pro filters are much less prone to scratches than the P system ones. My Z-Pro ones are in great condition, my old P system ones I replaced a few due to scratches.

[michael_sa]

I have the Cokin (P) GND, a B&W 502 GND, Hoya ND4 (2 stops), ND8 (3 stops) & ND400 (9 stops)
The Cokin P121 (They call it: "Gradual Neutral Grey G2 ND8") is not neutral. It has a magenta'ish colour caste.
A few examples of the colour cast:
Cokin P121 & Hoya ND400 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelbuddle/2460699077/)
Cokin P121, Cokin c-pol & Hoya ND8 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelbuddle/2445350594/)
Some examples of the ND400 here. (http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=nd400&w=73678487%40N00)

The ND4 (by itself) I find pretty useless. I often stack it with the ND8 to do stuff like this. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelbuddle/1015163005/)
There are some others here (http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=73678487%40N00&q=nd8&m=text)

The ND8 by itself is OK, but since getting the ND400 I don't use the others much.

The B & W GND is a beautiful piece of glass and German engineering, but I never use it. It has too little effect, as the tint, whilst beginning in the centre of the glass is too gradual for any great effect.
web image of the B&W GND (http://www.cameraworld.co.uk/images/products/large/B+W%20502%20Grad%20200.jpg)

All my screw on filters are in 77mm and I use step up rings for use on my other (non 77mm) lenses.

Hope that's of some help.

Regards,
Michael

[TOM]

iI have found that the Cokin Z-Pro filters are much less prone to scratches than the P system ones. My Z-Pro ones are in great condition, my old P system ones I replaced a few due to scratches.

Interesting, I will have to get some of these.

[reaction]

hehe, B+W surely have great reviews, but for the $$$
not that pro!

why is ND400 9 stops? 2^9 should be 512 :)

[michael_sa]

hehe, B+W surely have great reviews, but for the $$$
not that pro!


why is ND400 9 stops? 2^9 should be 512 :)

That's a pretty good question.
My guess is that it's not exactly 9 stops - but close enough to it.
(maybe they rounded 8.64385619 up to 9? :confused013 )

To add to what I wrote before;The ND400 is a bit of a special tool.
Use on a wide angle lens will result in a lot of vignetting, as light from anywhere but the centre of the image is passing through the filter glass at an angle and will therefore suffer higher attenuation. Sometimes this looks ok, sometimes not.

The OP asked which she should get, ND or GND.
In my opinion it depends what you want to shoot as they are suited to different purposes.
If you're wanting to shoot waterfalls in even light, river/wave motion or to allow a slower shutter speed for (action) motion blur (on a bright day) - get ND's.
If you're wanting to shoot land/seascapes where you know the sky will blow out or to emphasise the sky/clouds - a GND may be more useful.

Regards,
Michael

[reaction]

I guess the other side of the Q is,
if I get ONLY ND8, are there any scenes where I would have wanted ND2/4 but can't use ND8 with?
I can't think of any, but who knows?

[NickMonk]

I have lost count the amount of times I have answered thsi question so I won't go into huge detail.

Buy a Cokin system, work out if you use them often (as I did), then throw them out or give to some other sucker and buy Lee or Singh-Ray rectangular filters (maybe buy the Cokin Z-pro system to hold Lee - Lee holders (and filters) are VERY expensive).

Chalk and cheese, you get what you pay for. Don't bother buying an expensive system though unless you use them all the time as I do.