View Full Version : Access at motorsport
To the people with cameras who want to shoot from where I shoot from (sometimes) I earned the rite to shoot from where I shoot I even may have paid for the privilege (I personally haven't paid for the privilege) I have paid for the insurance and I have also paid my dues. So when I come up to you and ask who are you shooting for and you say "I'm shooting for my self and I'm not selling anything but I'm going to be giving some shots away to some mates who are riding or driving" don't be surprised when I get all bent out of shape and tell you what I think.
If you want to shoot from were I shoot earn the privilegee, pay the price, then you may have some Idea what those shots you give away have actualy cost me (me = all the photographers that have payed there dues and their insurance).
You know that job you do for pay, I may just turn up at your place of work and say to your boss Id like to do his job that looks like fun I might just do it for you for free, see how you like that.
I know I can't stop you from shooting for your frends for free and I dont want to, I shoot some of my frends for free but when I tell you you can only shoot from public access areas and tell you with attitude lump it.
End of rant.
if I understand correctly you are mostly annoyed by unaccredited persons wanting to shoot from areas reserved for accredited photographers? that I can wholly sympathize with. unless they go through the proper accreditation process - and I know it can be quite involved - they have no business shooting from the areas reserved.
as for trying to make a quid from photography while everyone else wants to give the service away, well... welcome to professional photography:gl:
geoffsta
05-03-2012, 6:59am
Please don't get me wrong here atky. But if I (Hobby Photographer) was at a sporting event, taking photos for myself or for friends. Got up early. Researched all the T & C's. Found an ideal location, that wasn't a clearly designated pro TOG area. And some bloke came up to me ranting that I have pinched his spot, and claimed to be a pro. I would politely tell him to bugger off. Or at least come up with a compromise.
Once again, don't get me wrong. But if I were a pro TOG, and knew that a sporting event was coming up. And was invited by the organizers to take images. And knew that members of the public would also attend the event. I would talk to the officials, get them to create designated Pro TOG area's. After all, it's not just you that would make money out of your images. The event organisers use those images for promotion or for magazines. So it is in their interest to let you get the best shots that you can.
As for you coming to my work and offering to do it for free. You are welcome to it. But be prepared to get your hands dirty. And don't forget to put out out the designated work area signs warning the public to stay clear. And don't forget the weeks of organizing and planning that goes into preparing the area so that members of the public do stay clear.
Personally If you were to come up to me and explained that you were a pro. I would let you have the spot. but be prepaired to have me asking questions all day. :D
You mist the point Geoff I shoot motorsport from inside the fence in nonpublic areas If you are the public and are shooting from public areas I would probably tell you the best spots to shoot from.
The organizerss of events decide who has accesss to areas inside the fence not me that said if the organizerss have an arrangement that X photographer has exclusive accesss to ensure continuity of coverage respect that, don't tell me you've got just as much rite to be there as the photographer that is there every day in the rain in the heat when he or she would rather be somewhere else or they get up at four in the morning to get there.
As for getting my hands dirty you have no idea some of the types of work I have done Motor industry, Army, Construction, Sales, ETC no silver spoon in my mouth.
MiniFighter
05-03-2012, 8:50am
Giving you some feeback from the persective of a hobbyist/hack photographer...
If it was/is inside the fence area where you do need permission to shoot from, wouldn't a word to the marshal's/organizers/safety officials be more beneficial to both you and the hobbyist rather than having a rant and coming across as a stuck up photographer?
I, in no way sell, promote or even encourage sales of any of my images, Nor do i want to...ever. And i do nothing other than show friends and family and post here (occasionally) for CC. If i were at an event and seen a prime spot to shoot from, and there was no signage, no barricades etc keeping me out or advising me not to enter, then that's where id be.
geoffsta
05-03-2012, 9:08am
I went to post this earlier, but the site gave a database error. :angry0:
Now I understand.. In the heat of the moment, and fired up. You forgot to mention the inside the fence bit in the opening post. :D
I too would be a bit miffed in that situation. And if that person has no right to be in that area, an official should have been called to remove him from that location. Unless he has permission from the organizers to be there. And if that were the case, the organizers should have explained to that person the professional photographer has the right of way in that situation. Certainly not your fault, or the fault of the hobbyist. Just a lack of communication. And if that person were to be aggressive about leaving. An official could have been called to remove him/her.
Wayneo I never called anybody a hack and we are all hobbyists at some point I'm probably more of a hobbyist at the moment. All I'm saying is if you think access is your rite think again.
The fact is most hobbyists are great and are good fun to interact with it's the semi pro (put me in that class) who has no respect or little understanding of the amount of time and work over a long period of time it takes to get the recognition from organizerss and officials that allows accesss.
MiniFighter
05-03-2012, 1:50pm
Wayneo I never called anybody a hack and we are all hobbyists at some point I'm probably more of a hobbyist at the moment. All I'm saying is if you think access is your rite think again.
The fact is most hobbyists are great and are good fun to interact with it's the semi pro (put me in that class) who has no respect or little understanding of the amount of time and work over a long period of time it takes to get the recognition from organizerss and officials that allows accesss.
Lol all good mate, i was calling myself a hack. As for the access, as i said unless there is something that states "No Access" then most will venture on.
I've been doing photography professionally for over 30 years and never had a blue with any monkey trying to get a good shot. As long as they don't stand in front of me that's great. In most cases it's a real plus cause if you screw up a shot (particularly with sport) you know someone else could have it. Like an insurance policy. Just make sure you have a portable hard drive in your pocket so you can copy his CF card (with permission of course).
Actually, if his shots are any good buy his CF card off him. Bribery and corruption are great tools. I'm sure you use them every day of your life. :)
5 extra cents. Please don't take this the wrong way. At the end of the day what that WILL differentiate you to the "hack hobbyists" is the quality of the photos. As long as you get a compelling enough photograph you've got nothing to be worried about. Also what the guys said: A marshall is all that is needed :)
johndom
05-03-2012, 7:38pm
rite is not right.
Ah yes but people being people many of them would rather have a free ordinary shot than a good one they have to pay for. Some make that a lot of armature shooters are very good photographers and in some cases as good if not better than a lot of prose.
Atky said:
Some make that a lot of armature shooters are very good photographers and in some cases as good if not better than a lot of proes.
Ha Ha! If amateurs were as good as professionals they would be (professionals that is). There's much more to taking a good photograph than standing in a chosen spot. :)
And I guess you could count on one hand the number of people on this website who have actually ever bought a photograph.
geoffsta
06-03-2012, 4:43pm
Ha Ha! If amateurs were as good as professionals they would be (professionals that is). There's much more to taking a good photograph than standing in a chosen spot. :)
And I guess you could count on one hand the number of people on this website who have actually ever bought a photograph.
Somehow I don't know how to take the above remark. :umm:
There are certainly many members on this site who are better than most professionals. Maybe they choose not to be professional because they don't have the time or couldn't be bothered with the hassle that goes with the job. Or maybe they just don't want to ruin the enjoyment they get out of having photography as a hobby.
And why would these members need to buy a photograph. When they can go out and take a better one anyway. (I certainly don't count myself as one of these members)
This is going of track but some great photographers chose not to be professional and good luck to them, they enjoy what they do and don't want to make it a job. Many I would suggest are successfully in other fields and have no desire to make a living from it. I think there may even be a few members on this site that would fall into that category. So to say "if they were as good as professionals they would be", is I think one very big statement.
The above post was being posted as I typed.
Don't be too serious - it's a tongue in cheek remark. :)
Just keep in mind though the relationship between being a professional and being a good photographer is tenuous at best. A good professional is a good business person. To be a good amateur you need to be a good photographer.
Some seem to think that if a person takes a good photograph then that person is professional - couldn't be further from the truth. That person is simply a good photographer.
Hmm, the primary issue here is whoever giving away all their photos for free to competitors. Free always beats good in the sport game. If I see a mum/dad/friend on a sideline with a 70-200 these days I just keep on walking
arthurking83
06-03-2012, 8:43pm
So the issue here is that someone that you don't really know shouldn't be allowed to give away freebies to their mates, and that only a (semi)pro is allowed to occasionally give away some freebies to some of their mates?
Is that the way I'm reading the issue?
Basically what you're saying is that I'm not allowed to come to a spot close to you, even if the organisers have allowed me that privilege! .. and shoot my 'ol man, my best mate, or my son all hooning around the track and get some photos for my purposes and/or theirs!!
And that only pros/semi pros are allowed to take shots of the competitors just so that have a larger audience to sell too, even if that may only be one or two customers that they miss out on!
this is a great example of ambassadorship for photography! .. a brilliant step in the right direction for the cause, I reckon!
I think if we all adhere to these philosophies strictly and teach them to all school children from prep to 3rd year tertiary, the end result is that basically we should all give away out cameras now.(why prolong the inevitable!)
While the designated areas are off limits today, tomorrow the entire venue will be off limits, and then the next ultimate step is that the entire world will become off limits to anyone with a camera that doesn't hold some form of accreditation to prove that only they have the ability to shoot with a camera. And this accreditation must specify that only people interested in making money from capturing photos can only be accredited .. and that's that.
And there is no ifs or butts to the matter .. this is the way it's going to end up otherwise all these poor pros will end up in the doghouse with no prospects.
:rolleyes:
MAAATE! You're more than welcome to come to my work and do what I do for free .. I'll take as much time off as you do it for free for, and sell my house and do a bit of travelling too.
But even if you do it fro free, you stuff it up once, and you get the arse! .. no if or butts!
They can afford the peanuts they pay me, but what they can't afford the stuffing up of a few grands worth of goods getting from one place to the next!
The moral of the story is that nothing beats quality .. and (most)people pay for quality.
eg. if you got a Sigma SD-1 for free, would you then use it as your preferred camera over your pro level Canon and it's Canon lenses? Having the Sigma is restricting you to only Sigma lenses, and while some of them are great, there are many holes in the lineup compared to Canon/Nikon lenses.
Like Redgum said .. being a pro is not about just taking good shots. It's about the ability to market sell and promote.
A pro is someone who simply does that .. (sell)!
A great pro is someone who does it all the time, even in competition to the myriad of freebies available out there!
Darwin's theory comes to mind here!
It's simple.
If you don't adapt you die, and that's just a process that is now happening in the pro photographer community.
Those too lazy or tired to compete in the 'new world' are dyin, have died or will soon die.(not literally, photographically speaking)
Those that are regarded as great pro photographers simply have a better(or luckier) grasp of the current market, and have adapted to it better.
Speedway
06-03-2012, 9:26pm
I’m with Steve here. I shoot a fair bit of motorsport, (and sell a few photos, not enough to make a living though, I don't give photos away) at the lower levels i.e. Go Karts, local Off Road, Quad and ATV events and have gone through the process of making myself known, finding out the requirements (insurance etc), purchasing the correct safety gear and registering at the events. Then when I find others out there that shouldn’t be there. I get annoyed too. Also I raced upper end Speedway for many years and have albums full of photos by the track pros that I have payed for. I also have a few I have taken from the spectator and pit area while my son was racing but we still bought photos from the pros as their view is far better. This year I am going to try and build up a portfolio to be able to apply for accreditation at higher levels.
Keith.
Simply if someone is somewhere they shouldn't then the appropriate authorities should remove them
The other "issue" is where an organizer arranges a professional photographer to attend an event for professional quality coverage for media and their use. These days I will insist on exclusivity to attend (fir any chance of making it financially worthwhile - after all I'm running a business here). If I see anyone shooting with good gear then i will get you removed.
What a load did you read the thread
(So the issue here is that someone that you don't really know shouldn't be allowed to give away freebies to their mates, and that only a (semi)pro is allowed to occasionally give away some freebies to some of their mates?
Is that the way I'm reading the issue?)
If you are get some new glasses
(Basically what you're saying is that I'm not allowed to come to a spot close to you, even if the organisers have allowed me that privilege! .. and shoot my 'ol man, my best mate, or my son all hooning around the track and get some photos for my purposes and/or theirs!!)
Now your seeing things
(And that only pros/semi pros are allowed to take shots of the competitors just so that have a larger audience to sell too, even if that may only be one or two customers that they miss out on!)
I said earn the privilege for access, also think I mentioned public areas somewhere
(this is a great example of ambassadorship for photography! .. a brilliant step in the right direction for the cause, I reckon!)
That is just crap I've helped shown and guided more amateur photogs than most
(I think if we all adhere to these philosophies strictly and teach them to all school children from prep to 3rd year tertiary, the end result is that basically we should all give away out cameras now.(why prolong the inevitable!))
More pifle
(While the designated areas are off limits today, tomorrow the entire venue will be off limits, and then the next ultimate step is that the entire world will become off limits to anyone with a camera that doesn't hold some form of accreditation to prove that only they have the ability to shoot with a camera. And this accreditation must specify that only people interested in making money from capturing photos can only be accredited .. and that's that.
And there is no ifs or butts to the matter .. this is the way it's going to end up otherwise all these poor pros will end up in the doghouse with no prospects.)
Where is this coming from get real, anyone can get accreditation just earn it
(MAAATE! You're more than welcome to come to my work and do what I do for free .. I'll take as much time off as you do it for free for, and sell my house and do a bit of travelling too.
But even if you do it fro free, you stuff it up once, and you get the arse! .. no if or butts!
They can afford the peanuts they pay me, but what they can't afford the stuffing up of a few grands worth of goods getting from one place to the next!)
I've been responsible for moving hundreds of pepole, heavy equipment, explosives ETC. I don't care what you do for a quid I'm not trying to undercut you or take your business, sell your house I wont mis you
(The moral of the story is that nothing beats quality .. and (most)people pay for quality.)
Simply wrong
(eg. if you got a Sigma SD-1 for free, would you then use it as your preferred camera over your pro level Canon and it's Canon lenses? Having the Sigma is restricting you to only Sigma lenses, and while some of them are great, there are many holes in the lineup compared to Canon/Nikon lenses.)
Odd I love a SD1 and if you look I use almost exclusively Sigma lens
(Like Redgum said .. being a pro is not about just taking good shots. It's about the ability to market sell and promote)
Yes and if you want to be pro you need to work and earn access
(A great pro is someone who does it all the time, even in competition to the myriad of freebies available out there!)
I think a pro would try to protect his business
(Darwin's theory comes to mind here!
It's simple.
If you don't adapt you die, and that's just a process that is now happening in the pro photographer community.
Those too lazy or tired to compete in the 'new world' are dyin, have died or will soon die.(not literally, photographically speaking)
Those that are regarded as great pro photographers simply have a better(or luckier) grasp of the current market, and have adapted to it better. )
Ha adapt lazy can't compete not only are those words insulting as they would to me be a thinly vialed personal insult think you should read the rules you are a moderator?
Hm not showing new posts in index would love a reply
ricktas
07-03-2012, 9:06pm
Hm not showing new posts in index would love a reply
It only shows as not being in new posts, to you. Each member sees a different version of new posts, based on the threads and posts they have looked at. So whilst this doesn't show in new posts to you (cause you have already seen your last post and therefore there is nothing 'new' in this thread, for you) others see it in new posts if they have not looked at it.
New Posts is not generic for all members, it uses your cookie to keep track of what YOU have looked at etc, and YOUR New Posts is unique to you, as it is to every other member.
FallingHorse
08-03-2012, 4:44pm
Hmm, the primary issue here is whoever giving away all their photos for free to competitors. Free always beats good in the sport game. If I see a mum/dad/friend on a sideline with a 70-200 these days I just keep on walking
Lol - I am a mum on the sideline at my sons sports - armed with 70-200mm. Haven't given away shots yet. The stereo-typing sometimes gets a bit tiresome - yawn!
geoffsta
08-03-2012, 6:00pm
Is it Good :D Vs Evil :angry0: .... Pro's Vs Hobbyist
Lol - I am a mum on the sideline at my sons sports - armed with 70-200mm. Haven't given away shots yet. The stereo-typing sometimes gets a bit tiresome - yawn!
And I'm glad you don't, but unfortunately for me, it happens all the time. Stereotype ? No, reality, but I'm not really grumbling about it, i just move along, plenty of other customers and games to shoot.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Speedway
08-03-2012, 6:14pm
Is it Good :D Vs Evil :angry0: .... Pro's Vs Hobbyist
No its those who have done their homework (Pro or Hobyist) and got the approval V those that just jump the fence and think they have every right to be there because you are.
Keith.
camerasnoop
08-03-2012, 6:48pm
Shit happens! I just get on with it.
geoffsta
08-03-2012, 6:50pm
There are good and evil in both camps.
Some pro's can be real annul about some poor old mum/dad or hobbyist, who want to either get some better shots of their friend/relatives with a decent camera, instead of a point and shoot. Or in the hobbyist case, have a bit of a go at sport photography. (Like myself or FallingHorse)
Some Hobbyist can be just as bad by thinking that because they have spent 3 - 5 grand on camera gear, they have every right to do as they please. So far I have spent about $13,000 on gear and still think I'm not in the same class as many members on here. I still respect the pro's. And if they are busy I wont go near them. But if they have a bit of quiet time I'm not affraid to go over for a chat. And if they tell me to bugger off (Not many do) I'll still respect them, but know that they are true Rsoles.
ricktas
08-03-2012, 6:59pm
Sounds like the same argument as Gerry Harvey and the online retailers he talks about so often. I don't believe any solution would ever be the best one for ALL concerned. It is just something we have to live with, and either let it get us down, or rise above it.
I started sooting sport from the other side of the fence, got annoyed at not being able to shoot from the other side, made a lot of mistakes learned a lot of lessons made a lot of friends (one or two enemies) have always tried to say what I think. Have also tried to treat people with respect. Thing is photographers be they pro, semi pro, or armatures if they want to shoot with good access at motorsport learn the lessons make the contacts get the permission and pay the price. Even if you do all that and you want to take money out of my pocket I will be upset and will do what I can to keep the money in my pocket.
If you come to an event I have made arrangement with the organizer or promoter to have exclusive access to I will tell you to leave. Simple really, if another photographer has made a similar arrangement with a promoter or organizer I will respect that arrangement (I may shoot from public access area for fun but I most certainly would not offer my images for free and would direct any enquirers to the other photographer.
As for excluding any one from shooting I don't see that, I have done the work to get the exclusive access if you want the access you should do the work to gain it so the only one excluding anyone from events are the photographers not doing the work to get the access.
At motorsport events and the ones I have arrangements with allow all comers to shoot from public access areas, so if you want a picture of your dad son or friend you can get one just not one from the areas accredited photographers can shoot from. Is this right I think so, many of you out there don't if you don't, let me ask you some questions.
Do you know the safe places to be at a motorsport event?
Do you know when it is not just safe but allowed to cross a track?
Do you have knowledge of the differences in the behavior of a bike or a car when it crashes?
Are you willing to be drug alcohol tested as an event official?
Do you know what a red fag means?
Who has the final say in where you can be even inside the track?
Would you stand out there when its poring with rain ?
When its 40 c in the shade?
When you would rather be home at a BBQ?
When you should be with you old mates on ANZAC day?
macmich
09-03-2012, 7:52am
i have insurance
i shoot the same club each year and was asked yesterday if i would be right for easter comp racing
i have insurance and have access to all areas of track
i sell my shots as full day discs or single shots and have got myself a few lenses from it
i do not by any means call myself a pro
but if any one is wandering where there not supposed to be i just advise them for there own safety to head back to safer areas
i shoot most of the time in dusty enviorment which cuts down visability again making it more dangerous to someone not aware
but as shooting around the outside of the track along as they are shooting within the safety zones i dont care if they try to sell there photos or not
i have the same people by mine each meeting and quite happy
i will put the camera down and put a cone or fix a tyre wall if hit while in the middle
but as far as other shooters its a great learning curve on panning for them and let them go i say as long as there safe
but in saying this if they break the rules of the event the marshalls should show them the gate for there own safety and that of the club
i will probably do a hour or two at easter due to back and see how it holds up
cheers macca
lincoln
13-03-2012, 9:40pm
I volunteered as a flaggie for years mainly at Oran Park, Eastern Creek and Phillip Island.
Not for the infield pix but for the love of the sport.
Still managed to grab a few good shots when not attending to marshalling duties and never had any problems with the pros.
Attended a surf carnival at Wanda Beach recently to record my son's activities in the surf boat comp. and chatted at length with the official photog.
Of course I respect the pro's right to make a buck and have never stood on any toes.
Excellent results can be obtained from the outfield in the right location - Turn 2 at Eastern Creek can be dramatic.
Siberia and MG at Phillip Island also work well. These locations best for light in the morning.
Turn 1 at Phillip Island can yield good shots - how's your panning at 250km/hr?
Biaggi at 325 KPH on a superbike at Phillip Island Mist the shot buga.
if its restricted access then yes they should be removed if not properly accredited. It sounds to me that the person your referring to had gained access through other avenues and were taking advantage of it to try some shots. As a hobbyist I love going to event and taking photos as its a chance to increase my skills when i don't normally get the chance. If a pro said i was in the way or in a dangerous position then i'd move afterall its their job I'm just doing it for fun and my own collection.
ricktas
15-04-2012, 6:04am
For those who saw the posts here last evening, before we moderated and removed them. The person who made the personal attacks, has been banned from AP.
Wayneo I never called anybody a hack and we are all hobbyists at some point I'm probably more of a hobbyist at the moment. All I'm saying is if you think access is your rite think again.
The fact is most hobbyists are great and are good fun to interact with it's the semi pro (put me in that class) who has no respect or little understanding of the amount of time and work over a long period of time it takes to get the recognition from organizerss and officials that allows accesss.
So... just to clarify, would you be upset if you had to share a corner with a 'semi-pro/hobbyist' who had permission to be track side?
Speedway
16-04-2012, 1:17pm
The operative word here is permission.
Keith.
So... just to clarify, would you be upset if you had to share a corner with a 'semi-pro/hobbyist' who had permission to be track side?
Not a problem at all and I do.
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